Simple Anti-Cheat (SAC)

[Deathspike]

Cheating; Downloading and using any form of a cheat created by anyone else is a act of weakness. Without any knowledge, clicking a download button, do these people gain an advantage over others, for example by being able to see others through the walls or avoid having to aim - because that is done for you. Don't get me wrong; I like those who actually learn to hack and create something for their own pleasure. I just don't like those damned leeches who download them!

In multiple forum threads scattered in our boards, it has been revealed a new system will take the place of the current (weak and restricted I might add) cheat prevention system. This new system is designed from scratch and is not integrated with MovieBattles II, which I have named Simple Anti-Cheat (SAC).

This migration to external files opens up new possibilities that were previously not possible. By breaking the limits of the engine, I had a focus on the ease of use. This is where the name came from, Simple Anti-Cheat, as in - easy to use! One of the main goals was to have the system load automatically, this works but sadly only for Windows users.

Those unfortunate souls using Linux must use a launcher instead, but trust me when I say that isn't hard (Double click anyone?). The other main goal was to allow me to update SAC files at any time without intruding on your game experience. Therefore any update is automatic, silent and is performed when you play the game! You don't have to reconnect or do anything actually, just play! While the system is updating, it will go at maximum speed possible so this will most definitly affect your latency and cause lag. Luckily an update is a rough 700KB, so most of you should be fine within 5 seconds. The unfortunate 28k-gamer will have an estimated 3 minutes of lag.

Another possibility that was opened up due to this migration is to support modifications other then MovieBattles II. I've already spoken to the lead coders of both ArbModding (http://www.arbmodding.co.cc/) and Jedi Knight Galaxies (http://www.jkgalaxies.com/), both are enthusiastic about the system and will be using SAC upon their initial releases. Will this mean there will ever be a SAC for saber games? Probably not, I have no interest in that whatsoever. The server list for any of these modifications will feature a new icon indicating whether or not that server is protected by SAC.


[/URL] [URL=http://img21.imageshack.us/i/sacbrowser.jpg/] (http://img299.imageshack.us/i/sacconnect.jpg/)

I'll sketch a simple description on the working of this system. When you enter a SAC protected server your game client will be asked to authenticate itself - basically telling the server they are real. If the client is outdated, it will be required to update itself. The server will wait for a limited amount of time until the client is back up to date. From this moment on, every internal switch goes on to start detecting possible cheats. When something illegal is detected, the client will be forcefully disconnected from the server. Of course to verify if the system is still running, authentication will be required at periodic intervals. Bandwidth is not an issue, almost nothing is added (a few bytes per minute).

One noticeable difference between the current system and this new one is how cvar violations are handled. The current system simply drops you (which is a bit harsh), but the new system will force back the cvar to an allowed state. It will keep doing this for a limited amount of times, so don't go play around violating it over and over! The system will not look outside of the game folder, so your porn is safe - don't worry.

The system is currently being tested by a batch of testers running on Windows XP 32-Bit, Vista 32/64-Bit and Windows 7 32/64-Bit. I'm handling the testing on Linux myself and so far no major issues have been detected (Apart from one scenario where we probably have detected some form of a virus, which is awesome!). Every automatic update will go through the same or improved channels of testing before being released into the public. Of course, you - the ordinary player - won't notice a thing.

I hope this will bring you up to speed, if you have questions remaining please don't hesitate to ask. Please do note, however, I won't go into internal details how certain things are handled at the code level (which should speak for itself :p)

[Wildebeest]

This should clear up some questions.

[Lindsey]

Sounds great and very akin to the likes of punkbuster and steam's VAC system. This should quell any hacking trends faster I'd say if it can be updated on the fly versus waiting for a new build/hotfix to address such issues.

[Frog]

love it. Thanks to deathspike for all his hard work! a beer if i ever meet you!

[SuperKiller]

Windows 7 support = VeRY VERY GOod

[Nichilus]

+ 1 000 000 respect for Deathspike :)

Hope this will make it into RC4... damn, how impatient all the new features makes me :D

[TheLOLipop]

I made the icon!!! xD

[MBCommander]

So? Do you feel the need to get +karma for every little thing, no matter how insignificant? The Icon isn't a must, heck they could just put a SAC in the column with a TICK


Nice Vortex.

[Torrentazos]

<3 Deathspike / Vortex (and the rest of the devs) for his hard work

[Mads]

your porn is safe - don't worry.

Uff, that's relieving.

Deathspike cares about our sexual education and reflex in right palm.
Let's thank him.

[Requiem]

Thank him? You still don't get it do you...

Vortex, Deathspike, is a hacker:eek::p

He infiltrated the mb team with the express purpose of eliminating the competition. He's not doing this for us, he's doing it for him!

This is his end-game. He aims to be the last hacker standing. That means all the power of the h@x will be concentrated in one individual.

At his whim and his whim alone, servers will be crashed, players will die, viruses, trojans and wyrms will proliferate all with the express purpose of taking control of your pc and making everyone his dirty little ho!!!

The End is Nigh!!!

[AlphaFA]

Thank him? You still don't get it do you...

Vortex, Deathspike, is a hacker:eek::p

He infiltrated the mb team with the express purpose of eliminating the competition. He's not doing this for us, he's doing it for him!

This is his end-game. He aims to be the last hacker standing. That means all the power of the h@x will be concentrated in one individual.

At his whim and his whim alone, servers will be crashed, players will die, viruses, trojans and wyrms will proliferate all with the express purpose of taking control of your pc and making everyone his dirty little ho!!!

The End is Nigh!!!

Atleast hes just one guy.

Also. I still prefer plasmas icon.

[Varlesh]

Atleast hes just one guy.

Also. I still prefer plasmas icon.

As do I.

[Metaguardian]

Two important questions Vortex:

1. Is there going to be a situation, ala BG Tempalloc, where other programs (like Kerio Firewall) will interfere with the anti-cheat and give a false reading of hacking. Can you give an assurance that SAC won't disallow innocent players from the game and require them to spend weeks and weeks trying to figure out what the problem is?

2. Are all of the cvars still going to be locked as they still are now? By having all the cvars locked, it makes any film-making endeavours extremely difficult as half of the important ones (timescale, fov, etc) are locked out. If they are to remain locked, is there anyway to open them up if the game detects a /devmap or solo game that way they can be used in conjunction with pugmod? Surely a distinction between an actual game on an actual server and a solo/cheats game can be made in SAC?

[Sxx]

So? Do you feel the need to get +karma for every little thing, no matter how insignificant? The Icon isn't a must, heck they could just put a SAC in the column with a TICK
Troll more.

And yes, thanks Deathspike. Great work, once again =p

[Deathspike]

1. If I recall correctly, that firewall is a very invasive one, however I've already added exceptions to the scanning algorithm which should prevent a similar issue. I'm sure that in time we will hit false positives (especially around release time on large scale deployment); however I'm writing a tool which creates a detailed log about the detected modifications. The results are submitted to the master server where I can check the results and speak to the user. If it is indeed a false positive, I will update the binary accordingly. Yes, expect some chaos around release time - this is only natural for such a complex new system. Do note that none of the testers have hit any false positives so far (Except Gunman121).

2. Cvars aren't being handled as aggressively. They are forced back to their original state, but please note that since this is a seperate system, the server can disable the system at their own choice. This will allow you to do anything you could before the introduction of the system, without intruding on security for players playing in active combat. The servers having the system enabled will be shown with a yellow shield (as seen in the screen shot), while others will have none.

[Metaguardian]

Thanks Deathspike.;)

[Hawk]

Looks good deathspike, just one question: is there any way to update it without connecting to a server (eg like punkbuster's manual update thingy does for PB?).

[SPaMSandwich!!]

Looks good deathspike, just one question: is there any way to update it without connecting to a server (eg like punkbuster's manual update thingy does for PB?).
lol so speaks the man with the 28.8 modem!

[Jack]

Just... stop cheaters... thats all.....
btw, why not talked with OJP Team?

lol so speaks the man with the 28.8 modem!
lol, ppl playing on this are lagging so much....

[Raz0r]

btw, why not talked with OJP Team?
What...? o_O

[TheLOLipop]

So? Do you feel the need to get +karma for every little thing, no matter how insignificant? The Icon isn't a must, heck they could just put a SAC in the column with a TICK


-karma for you sir.

Also,

Also. I still prefer plasmas icon.

As do I.

Too late :p asslickers, yes it's true

[Mads]

Ok, one more question...

When I was organising MB2Tournament this year a biggest problem was definitely an impossibility of checking whether player cheats or not.

If server-administrator could get screenshots, it would be completely awesome.

You may say that it's not needed, tiny and insignificant but it really would be a help while organising matches.

What's more...

I'm planning something big this year. I don't wanna go into details right now but there is a chance that some money and promotion will come to mb2 for the first time in it's short history.

Winning may have some meaning this time and it would be completely irrational, if some players could get advantage from cheating.

Sorry but I don't believe that SAC will work in 100% of cases.

[Raz0r]

Sorry but I don't believe that SAC will work in 100% of cases.
Well maybe not, but what else do we have?

[Deathspike]

Looks good deathspike, just one question: is there any way to update it without connecting to a server (eg like punkbuster's manual update thingy does for PB?).

Not right now; You can download the file via your web browser but there is no valid way to see if it is a new file. I'll create a static web page to allow checking of your version compared to the server, so it will be easy to see.


Why not talked with OJP Team?

Why would I talk with them? I hold no interest in support OJP at all.


If server-administrator could get screen shots, it would be completely awesome. You may say that it's not needed, tiny and insignificant but it really would be a help while organising matches. Sorry but I don't believe that SAC will work in 100% of cases.

Of course SAC will not work in 100% of the cases, no system designed to have this specific job catches everything. While screen shots might seem like a good idea, it is a very intrusive addition. Perhaps it is possible to add a special scenario for the server(s) where the league will be conducted, but this will have to be both discussed with the team and your participants would have to agree to it.

[Jack]

What...? o_O
ojp got cheaters too lololol

Why would I talk with them? I hold no interest in support OJP at all.
infinite ojp-mb2 hate....

If server-administrator could get screenshots, it would be completely awesome.y and promotion will come to mb2 for the first time in it's short history.
Pointless, jk3 doesn't have key authenticating, so there will be no 'keyban' like PB,Steam... admin could give him only ban, but what when he has dynamic ip? Usable only on tournaments. Add it.

[Deathspike]

infinite ojp-mb2 hate....

Hating OJP or simply not supporting it are two completely different things.
Would you support a project if you had no interest in it? I wouldn't.

[Emiel Regis]

Especially if the other community's modus operandi is 'MB2 stole everything from us, including the playerbase, and now we have to hate them forever to get it back' ;)

Good job Vortex, I knew you would be up to the challenge of eVc :D

[Jack]

Lets stop ojp-mb2 hate topic.
Wut about screenshot thingy.

What about something like restricted zones? Blocking for example wallbugs by serverside clip without bsp ent inject? [idea from stripper source]

One thing i want is no cheaters on servers.

[AceVentura]

Lets stop ojp-mb2 hate topic.
Wut about screenshot thingy.

What about something like restricted zones? Blocking for example wallbugs by serverside clip without bsp ent inject? [idea from stripper source]

One thing i want is no cheaters on servers.you mean idea from xmod of jk2.

[SHARKAN]

Will this new system tell you where your corrupted files are ? Because right now I am forced to use anti cheat hack to play the game normally because otherwise I would get error number 2 for no valid (or vissible reason for me) reason.

[Jack]

you mean idea from xmod of jk2.
yase, cool thingy doesn't it?

Because right now I am forced to use anti cheat hack to play the game normally because otherwise I would get error number 2 for no valid (or vissible reason for me) reason.
Same here.

[MrEmperor]

Thanks, good job!

[Hawk]

Not right now; You can download the file via your web browser but there is no valid way to see if it is a new file. I'll create a static web page to allow checking of your version compared to the server, so it will be easy to see.


Epic.

545432534

[Wildebeest]

What about something like restricted zones? Blocking for example wallbugs by serverside clip without bsp ent inject? [idea from stripper source]

Force Seeing is wallhacking as a feature.

[Frost]

Oh wow. That icon sucks.

Nice work, Vort.

[master yoda]

It's really needded, I can't go onto a server without immediatly being headshotted by a BH disruptor...

[Assassin]

No way, I can finally play on Windows 7?

Awesome work, might start playing the mod again.

[MAS]

Wow, now Blo and others have no reason to call me a wallhacker anymore. Way to spoil my fun, Vortex :(

[Greenleon]

Are there any cheaters on the MB servers? I never noticed one. And on the servers I play, there is almost always an admin reachable, to ban the cheater. So I do not see why anyone would need the SAC system. I am not going to put it on my server. But I welcome the end of the old anti-cheat-system as it disallows me to play on linux (detects wine as cheat).

[Scizor]

Are there any cheaters on the MB servers? I never noticed one. And on the servers I play, there is almost always an admin reachable, to ban the cheater. So I do not see why anyone would need the SAC system. I am not going to put it on my server. But I welcome the end of the old anti-cheat-system as it disallows me to play on linux (detects wine as cheat).

so either you play on a four slot server with your friends or you just can't tell what a hacker is

[Frost]

Are there any cheaters on the MB servers?

Yes.


I never noticed one. And on the servers I play, there is almost always an admin reachable, to ban the cheater.

Except you can easly ban someone from being too good if you get alot of people crying...


So I do not see why anyone would need the SAC system. I am not going to put it on my server.

Nice logic there.

[Daring Dashwood]

Awesome sauce. Good work on the Windows 7 support, I can't want to start playing again. :)

[TheLOLipop]

So I do not see why anyone would need the SAC system. I am not going to put it on my server.

Why would you buy a server when no one will play in it... >.>

[JohnMatrix]

This looks like a real pro piece of work! Congratulations on the new system, I hope everyone will be using it on their server and we shall have peace!

[Greenleon]

Why would you buy a server when no one will play in it... >.>

At least all the cheaters will come, because its the only place for them to play :D ... But seriously.. I never, I mean never saw a cheater. Maybe they are all on dotf 24/7 servers.

But we will see. If there will be a problem, I am glad, the SAC is available.

[Torrentazos]

At least all the cheaters will come, because its the only place for them to play :D ... But seriously.. I never, I mean never saw a cheater. Maybe they are all on dotf 24/7 servers.

But we will see. If there will be a problem, I am glad, the SAC is available.

Look harder :s

OR, you play on very well administrated servers :D

But yeah, most of them hang out in places like Sexy coz the administration there is practically non-existent so they can get away with it there.

[Necro]

also greenleon, with the new SAC you will be able to play on Linux again.
Nice job Deathspike. Also, that icon sux lol

[alenoguerol]

Are there any cheaters on the MB servers? I never noticed one. And on the servers I play, there is almost always an admin reachable, to ban the cheater. So I do not see why anyone would need the SAC system. I am not going to put it on my server. But I welcome the end of the old anti-cheat-system as it disallows me to play on linux (detects wine as cheat).


just check full servers of 32 slots with "uberskillz" aiming ppl with projectile rifle and distruptor lvl1 with almost 100% of accuaricy

[JohnMatrix]

At least all the cheaters will come, because its the only place for them to play :D ... But seriously.. I never, I mean never saw a cheater. Maybe they are all on dotf 24/7 servers.

But we will see. If there will be a problem, I am glad, the SAC is available.

Probably you don't know how to spot a cheater. Look at anyone using disruptor who has nice amount of kills, lol. Chances are he is using aimbot or wallhack.

[BigAnnoyn'Fag]

so your porn is safe - don't worry.

How did you k...
Anyway, great job. Looking forward to see SAC in the next release.

[TockRock]

Amazing! One question though:

Will I need to run Wine and download those 4 files if I want to play? I'm using an Intel Mac.

[redsaurus]

no you aren't, you're either on an intel OR a G5 (PPC, so old). that's like saying that you're running mac os windows...

if you're on intel you'll need wine and the files to play on SAC-secured servers, if on PPC you'll only be able to play on unsecured servers

[Avenger]

Probably you don't know how to spot a cheater. Look at anyone using disruptor who has nice amount of kills, lol. Chances are he is using aimbot or wallhack.

And there is the problem with that whole story. Some people are just good with it and can get many kills that way. Snipers in general tend to have a great kill/death ratio because they are mostly covered while trying to take out the enemy from the distance.

But I fully agree that disruptor is the most aimbot friendly piece of gun we have in this game, refering to the recent events aka as Owen. You know what you can do to spot a wallhacker? Hide behind a corner and pretend to run out but make it so that your full model is clearly hidden from the acused persons view. If he shoots he is most likely a wallhacker since how the **** should he know that you were moving there? :)

Vortex, my biggest respect and thankful good wishes for your new Anti Cheat. It looks so nicely done and so effective from what you have written down there! I cant thank you enough for that work. I´m sure that it will handle its job quite well! You seem to be a very skilled programmer (Is that how you call it? Or coder? :P), you should be proud of what you are doing and achieving with your knowledge. Thumbs up!

[Airplane!]

Looks good, can't wait.

[Kazul_MB]

This should come out ASAP. This Anti-Cheat would most definitely be a clan killer. Of course, some may not implement it, but that'll just kill 'em slowly. Hell, my clan has agreed to spread its wings after this comes out. Thank you so much for putting all your hard work and effort into make SAC. Can't wait to see it in action.

[svearike]

I'm kind of confused, what is your goal with MB2 Deathspike? A year ago you released one of the most used wallhacks for MB2 and now you are releasing an anti-cheat tool for the same mod. I demand an explanation to this!

[Hexodious]

haha at the Owen hack, im glad he made it so it all gets sorted for next release and it isn't really an issue. I mean come on a Melee Wookiee had a better score/ratio than him :P

When you think he is about to shoot, crouch and move left/right for a dodge.

[TheLOLipop]

haha at the Owen hack, im glad he made it so it all gets sorted for next release and it isn't really an issue. I mean come on a Melee Wookiee had a better score/ratio than him :P

When you think he is about to shoot, crouch and move left/right for a dodge.

Truths. I had a better score than most of the WHers :p.

[Hawk]

That's because every gun in this mod is totally horrible for an aimbotter, except for the disruptor.

[Deathspike]

I'm kind of confused, what is your goal with MB2 Deathspike? A year ago you released one of the most used wallhacks for MB2 and now you are releasing an anti-cheat tool for the same mod. I demand an explanation to this!

Warning: Boring information about my interests in programming.

I wondered if people would actually notice! My goal is and has always been the same, to learn as much as possible about assembly, programming and the internal working of the windows operating system so that. The ultimate goal is to be able to manipulate any piece of software to do as I command.

Think about the ability to create software such as virus-scanners and firewalls. But also security software which isn't widely available, for example generic ways to detect "banned" software and games in a school network (Thus; Block students from gaming while at class).

This hack you mentioned was a good introduction in some of the techniques, which I've refined quite a bit over the time. The real goal of the system was to load up shared libraries (named accordingly as plugins) to manipulate the game according to the loaded library. It was the product of the first wave of software I intended to create (the simple one, thus the "evil" one). The wall hack you mentioned is just a single library with about 10 lines of code. An easy example of what can be done.

This project (SAC) has been spawned using many of the techniques which founded the earlier created hack. However there is a key difference, security has much more to think about. There are numerous pieces of software that actually act exactly the same as a game hack (such as XFire or any generic firewall)!

There are a million ways to manipulate a program so managing this type of detection is far more advanced then say, creating a game hack. You'll also take care of people attacking the piece of software to shut down some algorithm (in this case, the actual detection of cheating)! While this is impossible, you can at least try and make it hard.

In the end, it's all about the learning process. In a year or five I don't intend to be working as a hobby for some random game/modification, but rather as a professional programmer with a great deal of accumulated knowledge/experience about systems that apply on the business model as well.

Making your piece of software interoperable with an existing, closed-source piece of software is a task that isn't that rare (think of upgrading from an old to a new system) so being able to reverse the existing software is a really great plus. And of course, experience brings speed!

The question was what is my goal? As you can read, to learn.

[Wraith]

As you can read, to learn.

Only part I read :P

[svearike]

so you learn by sharing a hack for the entire community?

[Gunman121]

so you learn by sharing a hack for the entire community?

There's the thing though Deathspike doesn't just give out stuff. He makes people program for themselves, which is something that is good. People get better when they have examples, and that helps create better programmers. Deathspike is not the bad guy who released an aimbot and goes ''Here i made this for u guiz hope u enjoy i'll keep makin more soon k? ^_^"

[Emiel Regis]

I thought you didn't want to pursue a career in IT Deathspike, choosing chemistry above that. Something changed? ;d

[Deathspike]

Some chemistry turned out to be boring as hell. I'm already studying IT at school now, my second year there. Still 6 to go :\

[MAS]

so you learn by sharing a hack for the entire community?

Or you can just believe the man on his word, instead of keep questioning him. The hacks that did get publiced aren't even that good. Like Vortex said, they're about 10 lines of code. I bet with the present Anti-Cheat Vortex could make something much more powerfull.

[svearike]

ok thanks man for releasing the hack for us all, it has given a lot of people advantage above people that decide to not/or cant use hacks. instead of course than releasing the hack for everybody you couldve kept it for yourself but you apparentely wanted everybody else to hack aswell otherwise you wouldnt have posted it, am i right? make sure that when you have released this SAC thingy youre on that you dont release a hack aswell for those who want to keep hacking...

[Torrentazos]

jesus, lay off his back..

He's put a hell of alot of work into the anti-cheat, and now he is updating it with a much better, improved one...

If everyone had the same attitude as you then there wouldn't even be an anti-cheat out there because I'm sure he wouldn't want to help a community full of people who can't get their own heads out of their Asses.

[S1ck]

Rofl, this guy needs to relax.

It comes with the territory, to stop a hacker you have to think like a hacker.

All vortex did was get an idea how hacks were made and experimented to better his education and his understanding of computers.
Its not like he just threw it out at everyone.

He has a good fix right now for all the hackers and I am sure he wont release another "Hack" stop attacking him for something he did as an experiment.

[Hexodious]

ok thanks man for releasing the hack for us all, it has given a lot of people advantage above people that decide to not/or cant use hacks. instead of course than releasing the hack for everybody you couldve kept it for yourself but you apparentely wanted everybody else to hack aswell otherwise you wouldnt have posted it, am i right? make sure that when you have released this SAC thingy youre on that you dont release a hack aswell for those who want to keep hacking...

Its given an advantage to those of us that don't hack as well, we've gotten better to beat them.

[GRIMMAH!!]

Its given an advantage to those of us that don't hack as well, we've gotten better to beat them.

indeed. you'd think with all the hackers most of us would be fed up with this game already :P

[S1ck]

Its given an advantage to those of us that don't hack as well, we've gotten better to beat them.

True story, It gets annoying but makes us better players.

[Lucane]

Will there be win XP 64-bit testers also?

Please! :)

[Hawk]

Now people are raging at Deathspike? You people will never learn rofl.

[svearike]

wow skinny boys flaming me and defending their geek god!
i was not raging at all, but pixels can be so missleading (i guess?), i have a point of view, i personnaly think its good that hes releasing his SAC, i just wonder why he wanted to destroy for everybody at first by releasing hacks and now he wants to be everybodys saviour, or at least thats the picture i get from him, no offence, human instincts:eek:

one could ask why everybody hates owen but everybody loves deathspike when they both basically did the same thing? except from that deathspike is making an anticheat system now that will only allow himself to hack in the upcoming patch and/or build

[Radical]

I guess that some people can't or are unable to read carefully and do not think carefully on both sides point of view very well and go straight to flaming. So everyone chill the **** out and let's move on.

[Gunman121]

wow skinny boys flaming me and defending their geek god!
i was not raging at all, but pixels can be so missleading (i guess?), i have a point of view, i personnaly think its good that hes releasing his SAC, i just wonder why he wanted to destroy for everybody at first by releasing hacks and now he wants to be everybodys saviour, or at least thats the picture i get from him, no offence, human instincts:eek:

one could ask why everybody hates owen but everybody loves deathspike when they both basically did the same thing? except from that deathspike is making an anticheat system now that will only allow himself to hack in the upcoming patch and/or build

Difference: Owen released a hack and is all pumped about it. Deathspike released one that people actually had to do some work on to make it any good.

[Scizor]

A hack is a hack and should not be justified because one hack maker is a team member.

Seriously, I'm cool with my man vortex and all but you guys should stop with the ****ing double standards. Just because someone put work into a hack doesn't mean we should all go "hey that's okay since he put effort to it", would you go "hey viruses are okay, it probably took the hacker a lot of time to make it ^.^" and then some people go around justifying hackers by going "they help the mod" or "we get better because of hacks". Remove the wool that's on your eyes and realise that SAC would not be needed if hackers didn't hack in the first place.

[S1ck]

A hack is a hack, yet I could care less if Vortex made a crappy hack, which was to better his knowledge. Hacks have been around way before vortex made his so it wouldn't stop anything. He made a simple hack to get an idea of them etc.

Its not a big deal and hes now making the SAC to stop hackers. Its fine.

[Lervish]

A hack is a hack, yet I could care less if Vortex made a crappy hack, which was to better his knowledge.
What role does releasing it to the public play in gaining more knowledge? :D

[Kuer]

Doing something for yourself, for knowledge and for the joy of seeing it work is one thing. Releasing it to a bunch of half-brainers is another one. Please, don't ever connect the two.

[Promotheus]

Yep, it all makes sense now. Releasing hacks = good, because it took one time to do it. Yes i understand now, perfect sense.

[Varlesh]

Difference: Owen released a hack and is all pumped about it. Deathspike released one that people actually had to do some work on to make it any good.

He's a real hero then.

[TigerZeta]

Are you sure this system is 100% trustworthy? In all honesty, I'm worried of the safety of my PC. Any *respectable* coders in the MB2 development team (old ones) - Do you actually have the source code for this thing and can you see 100% what it does, and does it not open any backdoors?

The reason I ask this is because I'm reading this: http://jkgalaxies.com/index.php?site=news_comments&newsID=37

And he doesn't seem that trustworthy. In fact, the way he writes English reminds me of a certain mod author now long gone.

This may seem insulting, but honestly, I don't see any other mods featuring invasive anti-cheater tools.

It would help a lot if someone working with MB2 for a long while could vouch for this thing, having seen the source code for this thing. Trust is hard to earn with these kind of things, especially when recognized as an author for a previous hack.

If you take this in the wrong way, then you take it the wrong way. All I'm asking that there's more than one person within the MB2 team that actually knows what this thing does and can guarantee it's not malware.

[Lervish]

This may seem insulting, but honestly, I don't see any other mods featuring invasive anti-cheater tools.

Other mods don't need such because there's no use for hacks in those. :rolleyes: MB2's pretty much the only mod in which seeing through walls or using an aimbot (instant disruptor obviously) is actually beneficial.


Trust is hard to earn with these kind of things, especially when recognized as an author for a previous hack.
He is also the author of the current/previous Anti Cheat system MB2 has which, despite its flaws, functioned well until it was bypassed.

[Hawk]

If you don't trust him, then uninstall MB and get out of here.

[Promotheus]

He is also the author of the current/previous Anti Cheat system MB2 has which, despite its flaws, functioned well until it was bypassed.

Which was bypassed by eVc, Deathspikes co-worker from the mpcforums who regurarly releases hacks for the public.

[Scizor]

If you don't trust him, then uninstall MB and get out of here.

Your post is one of the most useless I have seen in awhile. We're here to discuss things and if he has a question he needs answering, then this is pretty much the only place where he can ask it and get a direct answer from the maker of the SAC himself. Lay off man, I'm sure Vortex would be glad to answer any questions the public has.

[GoodOlBen]

Are you sure this system is 100% trustworthy? In all honesty, I'm worried of the safety of my PC. Any *respectable* coders in the MB2 development team (old ones) - Do you actually have the source code for this thing and can you see 100% what it does, and does it not open any backdoors?

The reason I ask this is because I'm reading this: http://jkgalaxies.com/index.php?site=news_comments&newsID=37

And he doesn't seem that trustworthy. In fact, the way he writes English reminds me of a certain mod author now long gone.

This may seem insulting, but honestly, I don't see any other mods featuring invasive anti-cheater tools.

It would help a lot if someone working with MB2 for a long while could vouch for this thing, having seen the source code for this thing. Trust is hard to earn with these kind of things, especially when recognized as an author for a previous hack.

If you take this in the wrong way, then you take it the wrong way. All I'm asking that there's more than one person within the MB2 team that actually knows what this thing does and can guarantee it's not malware.

I personally had the same state of mind when I started reading about all this. Deathspike however has convinced me of the safety and trustability of it. For all you know, JA+ could be doing something equally mischievous. Just because it's external, it doesn't change much.

I'll let more tech-savvy people explain how you can make sure that Deathspike isn't pulling off anything sinister.


Doing something for yourself, for knowledge and for the joy of seeing it work is one thing. Releasing it to a bunch of half-brainers is another one. Please, don't ever connect the two.

I don't understand people like you. If you don't like the community, why go through the pain and misery of sticking around? There's a worldwide internets out there full of places to go and be, why stay here when you could be somewhere else where you could also enjoy yourself?

[Deathspike]

As GoodOlBen mentioned, he too had some concerns and came to me with them. One of the things that worried him was the ability of the program to do something beyond what I have described in here. The bad news here is that it is indeed, completely possible. But then again, which piece of software is not capable of such things?

Let's take a known modification as example. Clanmod, this modification had a feature once upon a time which would cause the server to send the administrator data to a master server. Along came a hacker (BobaFett) who reversed his hidden trick in less then five minutes and gained access to all the login information. This was a rather bad move for the creator of Clanmod, he invaded other servers with this. Another fun example is JAMod 1.5 for JK2. If anyone remembers this, this mod had a backdoor which allowed the author to access admin commands.

Personally I'm not planning to spy on you or invade your privacy in any way. There are several ways to check up on some of the internal workings. You can use your firewall to check which kind of information is send where. If you're totally paranoid, there is a program named sandboxie. This program allows you to restrict any process to reach outside its own space. Thus, you'll throw it in a sandbox and you don't have to fear it doing anything outside of that sandbox.

eVc has indeed released a bypass but it was also so incredibly easy to do so. After his release the hacking problem just became larger, but it was always present (although on a smaller scale). He has also agreed not to release any more of such tools against SAC but rather suggest improvements to the system (<3).

I hope this helps relief some of you. Let me know if I missed something.

[Hawk]

Surefire way of protecting yourself if you are really paranoid: don't install MB :p


My simple brain works like this: hackers = evil. Thus, Deathspike = evil.

I can never be wrong.
Good for you.

[JohnMatrix]

I don't understand people like you. If you don't like the community, why go through the pain and misery of sticking around? There's a worldwide internets out there full of places to go and be, why stay here when you could be somewhere else where you could also enjoy yourself?

Firstly, I wanted to say that obviously MB2 could have been full of viruses spy-wares and pictures of naked acidus, without any SAC, so why start worrying now?

And now to the quote. Sometimes you can be totally ridiculous.

This community can't be liked by any normal people, and normal I mean people who don't think that LOL ROFL HAHAH NOOB and LULZ is for people above the age of 5, maybe. I suppose many players stick around because you simply have to if you want to play the best star wars FPS out there.

Posting on forum might not be necessary, but why not, even if it's a place full of dumbasses. You post about things you like, some people post about things they don't like and just because you have your friends here, doesn't mean anyone who thinks they are stupid shouldn't be here, too. It's not like the community is 1 group of people, our common interest is the game, not some friendship.

I really don't enjoy myself here, you're right about that, but on the other hand, when I play some game, I want to have as many informations about it as possible and this is the place to go and I have this stupid thing that I often have to say what I think about things even if it's unnecessary or unwanted and even if I know that nobody cares. So here are your reasons.

[Torrentazos]

This community can't be liked by any normal people, and normal I mean people who don't think that LOL ROFL HAHAH NOOB and LULZ is for people above the age of 5, maybe. I suppose many players stick around because you simply have to if you want to play the best star wars FPS out there.



Going off topic a sec here, but this is so true...
And ironically, an argument like this happened today. I mentioned how i don't agree with this talk, and that i don't use it. And then Varlesh started a rage battle because apparently I judged him for him speaking like this.

I play the game because i love it, not because of the community. In fact, half of the community does my head in, which is why people think Im angry all the time, when actually it's just me expressing my opinion on said people.

I recall duce (<3) saying that maturity is not shown by how people speak or talk (which is true to a certain extent). But when it comes to the internet, when people go around talking like this, to me it can show maturity :/

[Pada V4.5]

Unless you play alone on empty servers, you are playing together with this community. If you don't like us so much, why keep playing?

[svearike]

Unless you play alone on empty servers, you are playing together with this community. If you don't like us so much, why keep playing?

the game and the community is an entire different thing, they didnt release the game with the community, the community came after... so wether he wants to play or not has in my opinion nothing to do with the community unless you are seeking for friends or a clan

[Ford]

This seems like a very roundabout way to fix cheating when the 5 mb2 servers still active could just get a decent amount of admins.

[Varlesh]

Going off topic a sec here, but this is so true...
And ironically, an argument like this happened today. I mentioned how i don't agree with this talk, and that i don't use it. And then Varlesh started a rage battle because apparently I judged him for him speaking like this.
;_; You were raging at me and called me a retard for typing "freunds".. It had nothing to do with anything but you were so angry you had to resort to that )8 I'd actually not even made any errors when typing when you randomly brought that into the conversation, shows how angry you really were!


In fact, half of the community does my head in, which is why people think Im angry all the time, when actually it's just me expressing my opinion on said people.

Massive contradiction, freund.

[t-773]

so one developer? I think VAT and punkBuster have quite a few developers. sac will probably turn into a whole projecton its own lol OR a shortcut is to look at VAT and PunkBuster and make the ideas work with MB2

anyway there are always 10 x more hackers than devs it's sad realy where peoples priorities lie

[t-773]

More like 2 hackers and the dev is freunds with em.

So he can get them drunk and get them to reveal any vulnerabilities they find! genius! :D

[Scizor]

Or vice versa, freund.

[Lyndis]

About the whole MB2 is the only game where wallhacks and aimbots are useful...

Force sense.
Oh, and he's right about the ruptor. Exact same thing that was wrong with Halo 1's pistol. >.> Guns with little to no bullet time are BAAAAAAD mmk?

So yeah, most MB2 weapons require too much lead for an aimbot to have an advantage rather than a DISadvantage against someone who knows they're aimbotting and can move around appropriately.

[Hawk]

I think you misread somewhere. MBII is the game where wallhacks and aimbots are least useful, except on disruptors. :P

[Torrentazos]

;_; You were raging at me and called me a retard for typing "freunds".. It had nothing to do with anything but you were so angry you had to resort to that )8 I'd actually not even made any errors when typing when you randomly brought that into the conversation, shows how angry you really were!


Massive contradiction, freund.


Not quite sure what you mean Varlesh, because i didn't relate the 'the fruends' rubbish to you, i just called you a retard because of what you said to gargos. Like you said you didn't even say it, so leave that for another argument.
I used the fruends crap as an example of the talk i dont use...

It's impossible to like and be liked by everyone, hence the HALF. If i dont like someone, then i will carry on not liking them unless they give me reason not to. So if they annoy me they will know about it ;)

[Varlesh]

Not quite sure what you mean Varlesh, because i didn't relate the 'the fruends' rubbish to you, i just called you a retard because of what you said to gargos. Like you said you didn't even say it, so leave that for another argument.
Lies, lies and lies again, my freund. aboslute nunsns m8, i didnt even do nefkin yt dis guy is raging hardcore lolz

[Torrentazos]

Clearly you have a memory of a gold fish. I was sticking up for gargos because you were being an idiot to him. Then it carried on, anyway leaving it at this.


That is all.

[Varlesh]

Out of the blue you just raged at me for no reason and called me a retard for using "freunds" which I didn't even type. Btw if you're gunna be a nazi can you at least get it right yourself.

Thx hun

xoxoxoxo

[Torrentazos]

You asked to change the server map. We all said No. Gargos said something along the lines of "if you don't like the map then gtfo" and then you replied with "no you gtfo." That's why i called you a retard, nothing else.

Freunds has nothing to do with it, i said about 10 minutes later that i dont like to talk in that slang, and i used FREUNDS as an example of it. I didnt relate it to you at all, you just assumed i did mate ;)

[Varlesh]

PROOF?
I am not your m8, freund.

[Torrentazos]

Proof: everyone on the server. Gargos being one of them, who may or may not post here shortly.

Your proof? nothing at all.

[Torrentazos]

Whether you are lying to cover his back or whether you were actually there I don't know, but if you were paying attention then you would know that what i've said is the truth, and what Varl is saying is to just try and annoy me like he does alot :S

[Varlesh]

anyway leaving it at this.

:rolleyes:

[Hawk]

Lock topic nao plz

[Torrentazos]

No it's fine, we agreed a truce ;)


Back on topic now:

Cant wait for p4 :P XD

[Azuvector]

I'll let more tech-savvy people explain how you can make sure that Deathspike isn't pulling off anything sinister.


The bad news here is that it is indeed, completely possible. But then again, which piece of software is not capable of such things?

For the less tech-savvy:
Anything you're worried about SAC doing behind the scenes, MBII itself could do. Code is code, for the most part. If you're willing to download the mod and trust that it's not going to snoop around/cause harm/etc on your computer, you should treat SAC the same way.
As a somewhat corollary to this, however, while Vortex/Deathspike's anticheat code is available to the other coders for review internally, I at least have found it too low-level to make much sense out of: Vortex and I are different sorts of coders.

I do like to consider myself a very ethical person and coder, particularly in regards to privacy and users' rights.
While Vortex and I have had our differences on some sensitive(unrelated) topics, he has in every instance I'm aware of, reacted in a similar manner to myself when some of the non-coders have proposed(Not maliciously mind you; there are consequences to some things that sound innocent, but actually have problems that aren't readily apparent to non-coders.) potentially invasive features in MBII for anticheat/antihack purposes. In short, this reaction tends to be, "No. Find another coder to do that, I won't do it."
I trust him not to be pulling any shenanigans behind the scenes.

While I'm not a MBII Team Leader by any means, nor an active MBII developer at the moment(Wilde, Ace, Zudni, Vortex, Acidus, Ben, back me up here?), I can pretty much assure you if a coder(any coder) on the MBII team is discovered installing backdoors, rootkits, snoopware, or anything that intentionally harms a player's computer, a notice about this would be posted publicly to all players, the offending code would be ripped from the mod ASAP, a patch immediately released without said code, a full code review of everything that coder has ever written for MBII would be done to look for more problem code, and that particular coder would be kicked from the MBII Team and permbanned so fast his head would spin. Not necessarily in that order.

*edit* I've been informed that SAC's sourcecode is not currently available to the MBII team. Looking into that now...
*edit2* Vortex has some technical problems right now on his machine(s) that he's working on, and isn't in the mood(You wouldn't be either, with schoolwork data possibly destroyed.) to discuss things. I'll be making an internal thread about this, and it will be discussed by the MBII Team over the next couple days or so.

[Graycookie]

Lock topic nao plz

Yo, forget the topic, I need a release date. You got a release date?

[Lyndis]

Real programmers program in fortran.

In other news. What is so weak and restricted abou-...*Stares at computer running XP when 7 would be preffered.*

...Oh.
But what else would this anti-cheat allow by lightening restriction? That's what I want to know.

[t-773]

No way. COBOL is posed to make a comeback. I know it.

[Hawk]

Assembly.

[GoodOlBen]

I can pretty much assure you if a coder(any coder) on the MBII team is discovered installing backdoors, rootkits, snoopware, or anything that intentionally harms a player's computer, a notice about this would be posted publicly to all players, the offending code would be ripped from the mod ASAP, a patch immediately released without said code, a full code review of everything that coder has ever written for MBII would be done to look for more problem code, and that particular coder would be kicked from the MBII Team and permbanned so fast his head would spin. Not necessarily in that order.

This something that would happen instantly. I don't take too kindly towards any invasions of privacy unrelated to countering cheating.

[Lyndis]

But once again. I want to know what sort of things we could accomplish with this loosening of the restrictions? It's curious and I'm excited to hear the possibilities.

[Raz0r]

Hmk I just read the last few pages, and all I can say is...

1) /facedesk
2) /FACE ****ING DESK
3) MB2 isn't the only mod with need for SAC (As it's already being included in two other mods...)
4) Without seeing the source, but having an understand of how SAC achieves what it needs to, I assure you your data and personal information is safe. No doubts about it.
5) Really, guys, unless you actually have an understand of how actual hackers go about their business, there is no need for you to poke your head in and accuse people or question their intent. You won't/don't understand it, even after it's been explained to you - So basically, don't post anything on that topic.
6) I agree with Hawk2. "Assembly" :D
7) ???
8) PROFIT
9) Again, awesome job Deathspike.

[TheLOLipop]

Again, awesome job Deathspike.

Couldn't agree more.

[t-773]

Trust, but verify.

[Necro]

4) Without seeing the source, but having an understand of how SAC achieves what it needs to, I assure you your data and personal information is safe. No doubts about it.
5) Really, guys, unless you actually have an understand of how actual hackers go about their business, there is no need for you to poke your head in and accuse people or question their intent. You won't/don't understand it, even after it's been explained to you - So basically, don't post anything on that topic.

as deathspike already said, you are executing code, just like when executing mb2, anything can actually be done to your computer (inside the actual user's capabilities) and while mb2 has been made by a whole team of people, SAC is being done by just one person who has a past as a hack maker so suspicion is expected

anyway, as he said, there are some things you can do (like examinating the packages the program sends to the internet) and some things you can only trust but really, if you have ''no doubts'' about your information being safe, you are just trusting too much

[Wraith]

Alright then, Necro, you just scared me into never downloading it x.x

[t-773]

5) Really, guys, unless you actually have an understand of how actual hackers go about their business, there is no need for you to poke your head in and accuse people or question their intent. You won't/don't understand it, even after it's been explained to you - So basically, don't post anything on that topic.


Way to talk down to people. First of all, it hasn't been explained to us, so how can you say we don't or won't undrstand it?

[Deathspike]

I can write a complete paper about it but truth be told, when I get into this kind of thing I usually lose any programmer paying attention (including most of this team and external programmers working with the same techniques to detect cheats in JK2). But this would also be a crash course on how to hack :p

[Hexodious]

Aka, don't do it :P I'd rather not understand.

[Hawk]

Deathspike is in ur compz, stealin ur lives.

RUN

[Wraith]

Deathspiek sappin mah credit card

[Ave Warren]

Hi, i have already bought a computer with windows 7, and i heard that i will not be able to play mb2 because of anti cheat system, which sees windows 7 as a hax, i am not sure is that truth, but if so, is there a possibility to do something in that case?

[Deathspike]

That is not true Ave Warren. Windows 7 is supported with this new system and has been successfully running for many of our own testers and/or developers without issues. You do need a little bit of patience until it's release. It did give issues with the old system.

[Wildebeest]

Move along, nothing to see.