View Full Version : Your opinion on healbug/bunnyhop.
Apparently, the new Gun Squad rules for Stormi's Gun Squad server are no healbug or bunnyhop. Kickage will happen if either of those are used. Frankly, I find it ridiculous and presumptuous to kick anyone who uses healbug/bunnyhop, considering that not only will it be impossible to monitor (and that most people will get away with it), but also that b17 is coming up soon and will have dealt with those accordingly (so I am informed). I think its, well, a good word would be retarded to just wantonly kick anyone caught using these "bugs". In my opinion, healbug is the only thing that makes a jedi equal to a sith, the ability to heal in combat. I know there are going to be hordes of people swarming into this thread saying "I don't healbug!" but I know you all do, I've played with almost every american player who has ever played jedi and all of you have healbugged at least once. The administrators are well-known to and respected by me. If the support for anti-healbug is overwhelming, I will do my best to reinforce the public opinion everywhere I go (including the tene servers).
This isnt a debate about your server, its a debate about healbug in general. This issue seems to have been a subject that there has been very much controversy in general but has never fully surfaced. I want to sort of drag this topic out of the closet and know where everyone stands with it (everyone who reads this forum anyway). I know gunners will undoubtedly say no to it (that goes for you too tom) but I would rather like them to think about balance, especially against the mandalorian class, and the realization that this will only be temporary as b17 is nerfing healbug.
Ok... I heard enough, Dont kick them. Let them spend there last of B16 and wait till B17. Let us have our heal bug and bunnyhop In B16
[KP] Tokakeke
19-03-2005, 05:07
No bunnyhop..healbug I tolerate cause it lowers fp.
The Raging Rodian!
19-03-2005, 05:10
Healbug- definite no. It is knowingly abusing a known bug in the mod for a tactical advantage. How is this different from wall bugging and ammo bugging? It's cheating, just low profile cheating.
Bunnyhop is the same in many respects. It evens out though as just about anyone can do it. It looks ridiculous though and takes advantage of a glitch in the base system so yeah, kill it off.
ah but bunnyhop AND healbug, that's magical, isn't it sneaky? :rolleyes:
The Bride
19-03-2005, 05:54
i didnt vote because my differences are split. On one hand, yes it's a bug, however, from what i understand it only works on lev3, hence i think that it should be a reward for someone who invests in it for lev3, and it always happens to me anyways (yes i use it). and the bunny hop, well. I hate when people do it. but it's their major defense vs jedi, so really, I'm just training myself to expect and counter it. (use crouch fast attack in blue stance)
Vox Clamantis
19-03-2005, 05:56
Well, I've healbugged in my time, but I gave it up a while ago, and haven't even been tempted.
But I bunnyhop sometimes, so I suppose I'm the antichrist.
:rolleyes:
~Gabriel
P.S. The way I see it, healbugging is wrong but unenforcable, bunnyhop is part of the engine and unavoidable. People who've been playing JKA since the day it came out (like me! :cool: ) aren't gonna just stop bunnyhopping because you tell them to. It was a mainstay in base and it's useful for getting down flights of stairs in MB.
Chaos the Chaotic
19-03-2005, 07:04
What are u talkin about when u say bunnyhop, Bunny hoppin mandos and flame I understand, but to kick gunners who bunnyhop against each other, how ridiculous, bunnyhop as u ppl call it has been around longer than ja and has roots in jo as well as countless other gunners games. It might mess with sabers but it should be allowed against gunners.
Heal-bug I absolutely despise. I won't elaborate further than that since, well, it's plainly obvious why it's a real problem.
As for bunny-hop, I'll only agree with that rule if it applies to both gunners AND Jedi/Sith. Jedi/Sith's bunny hopping may not screw with the hitboxes, but it's ridiculous when 5 gunners can't gun down or keep a Jedi/Sith off with their e-11's alone because it's not exactly possible to wear down fp with that bs going on.
Note: I think it would be nice if Jedi/Sith lost more fp when blocking in midair. Both more realistic and balanced.
I can only heal with saber up really...
I always use my force powers with 'use force' :eek:
Okay I'll start with bunnyhop because I don't hate that nearly as much as healbug. Bunny hop is unbalancing ESPECIALLY for jedi/sith. Definate proof of this is that on arena map I didn't bunnyhop for a long time then I started to hop and guess what? I never died! Because not only does it mess with hitboxes but it adds another dimension to a gunners aim against jedi/sith and allows them to regen force faster as they aren't hit as often. As a result deflection kills become your main focus which IMHO is lame and very VERY boring. How can you have fun tapping spacebar while holding A or D and mouse 2? Dull dull dull dulll dulllllllllllll.
Now onto my archnemesis, the healbug. I admit I used to healbug and I still do on the arena map, but thats as good as justified by how unbalanced the map is for jedi because of the total lack of cover from fire. But healbug litterally turns jedi into unkillable gods. TD a jedi and got 2 lives left? Think you have a chance at beating him? Think again by the time you get to him hes fully healed and holding block which reduces damage by 50% WETHER OR NOT JEDI HAVE FORCE!!!!!!!!!1111 IMO this needs to be fixed 50% is enourmous for just moving more slowly. But because jedi can heal hop and deflect all at once they own all gunners exept flame spam mandos plain and simple. 1 on 1 a jedi WILL win unless hes a noob and the gunners an experianced jedi killer or extremely lucky. And think about it, when you DONT healbug your force STOPS regening, your saber goes DOWN and its slower then the bug. Thats a lot of factors changing there ladies and gents. The most important one I would like to point out is the fact that while healbugging force CONTINUES to regenerate and jedi gain back 1 hp a second aproximatly. If a jedi could heal with his saber up the same way he healed with a normal heal (healing at a constant 2 hp about every 3 seconds without stop and without force regen) He'ed have a considerable less chance using heal in combat against even a soldier. And IMO heal isn't a combat power.
Well thats just my stance, and I think its a GREAT idea that a server is finally banning healbuggers bunnyhop imo isn't as big a deal but I still really hate it.
|_maPex_|
19-03-2005, 09:58
It's not just bunnyhop. It's movement in the general, although the biggest hitbox glitch is due to z-axis (vertical aka up-and-down) movement. Take an ARC. Have an ARC and Manda duel on ground using pistols only and the ARC use his dexterity and jump around too. The Manda if as skilled as the ARC will most likely die because not only is it harder to shoot at a jumper but even if you do see burn marks come off the ARC after you hit him he will not take any damage.
I wouldn't mind bunnyhop at all if the only problem was cosmetic non-realistic fighting. I do mind bunnyhop because it truely does mess with hitboxes after the MB2 team unearthed Raven's "fixes". Bunnyhop doesn't do anything in base but because MB2 has head/body/legshot hitboxes the bugginess is blatant.
Healbug has already been stated as a bug - I never use it and do well as hell. I just hide and heal when I am low on health.
WhiteShark
19-03-2005, 10:51
In my opinion, healbug is the only thing that makes a jedi equal to a sith, the ability to heal in combat.
hmm, why do you guys use the healbug in mb2_arena, when imps don't have sith? :rolleyes:
Healbug- definite no. It is knowingly abusing a known bug in the mod for a tactical advantage. How is this different from wall bugging and ammo bugging? It's cheating, just low profile cheating.
I totally agree.
Whoever made these rules has obviously gone without asking the whole lot first, as I dont think I've heard anything about these rules. And frankly if I did go on the server, which is highly unlikely, I will use the heal bug and they will have to kick me too :)
Healbug- definite no. It is knowingly abusing a known bug in the mod for a tactical advantage. How is this different from wall bugging and ammo bugging? It's cheating, just low profile cheating.
I see it as a balancing factor for the overpowered dark force powers.
And balancing against overpowered powers doesn't seem wrong? :P
I don't recall the GS rules saying anything about those, except "don't use bugs", which would mean "no healbug" in this case.
El Vi-Riachi
19-03-2005, 13:54
the bug is that widely used that it will be impossible to "police"
Jedi/Sith hopping is kinda a bug. They are supposed to take a higher mana drain when hit in the air but its bugged in b16.
The rules set by GunSquad are in my opinion, completely fair and intelligent.
If you don't want to play the game for how it was meant to be played,(i.e. Not abusing bugs,) then you shouldn't play at all.
What bugs me most, mostly because I play gunners, is Jedi/Sith bunnyhopping.
You cannot get a bead on them in the air, and even if you do, you hit less and they consequentially retain more force power. Bunnyhopping when facing other gunners, I can understand. It really has very little effect on hitboxes, other than making them smaller and moving faster.
Now, when I use Jedi/Sith, (which I rarely do,)I avoid using any bugs. I rarely even choose the heal ability. The heal bugging Jedi annoy the crap out of me. If can achieve a decent score playing fairly, (if sneakily,)then there is no reason that more skilled players cannot do the same. As for the Sith, there aren't as many problems. Their only buggy problem concerning force powers would be Dark Lightning. I'm not saying that it is overpowered, but having the ability to hold onto your saber while unleashing (one-handedly) a huge jolt of electricity bugs the crap out of me. If anything should be changed about it, it's the amount of FP used(should be more) and modifying it to a two hand usage (for force three of course).
Chroniktoke
19-03-2005, 15:50
Besides the fact that im pretty sure about both issues are being addressed in b17,i agree with heal bug due to the fact that sith get grip and lightning which eat jedi force powers ( mind trick cant be used widely on a group of people, because as soon as you slash through your first victim, you have no force left causing blaster kills on jedi, and heal makes the jedi class the jedi class)
I mostly agree with using the healbug because it's mainly the only power that makes the Jedi different from the Sith. And it's helpful for repairing minuscule damage from things like blasters, or melee. And banning bunnyhopping seems like a bad choice. Bunnyhopping has roots in numerous other games, and calling it a glitch in the system isn't going to make it go away. It also seems ridiculous to kick someone because they jumped twice in a row near a Jedi/Sith.
Mr_Oujamaflip
19-03-2005, 20:07
I 'member when CS had bunnyhop :)
lots of people were like: "OMFG bunnyhoppers" then when the next version came out (1.5?) they were like "OMFG i can't bunnyhop no more, lame :mad: ". If it goes people will complain, if it stays people will complain, if it is changed, make it optional for the server methinks.
Bunnyhopping makes you less accurate. I bunnyhop with jedi/sith to avoid clone blobs and villain nades. If someone could gladly suggest a way I can avoid thousands of clones firing gigantic blobs at me while pinning my allies down with suppresive fire (dont tell me to push, thats retarded and it doesnt work), then I will gladly stop hopping. Villain dets come in twos, so get hit by one and the next one is almost a guaranteed death. If I run, they'll shoot me, if I stay in defensive mode, they knock me down and then kill me with the second one. Solution? Jump.
About your opinions on healbug...
You guys still don't get it do you? B17 will be released soon, during which healbug will be null and void. This is just to save you guys a headache and let people healbug themselves out and when B17 comes they will all be screwed.
hmm, why do you guys use the healbug in mb2_arena, when imps don't have sith?
We don't always play SA. And mb2_arena is one of the most unbalanced maps (sorry lindsey) for the jedi class, healbug should be legit there.
If it were up to me, I would keep healbug. I've tried every single class and most of the jedi I've encountered were healbugging, I still managed to kill them. Let me point out that healbug actually keeps the game at a fast pace. If we had jedi hiding every single time they got injured the game would go incredibly slow and Jedi would not be able to help teammates.
What bugs me most, mostly because I play gunners, is Jedi/Sith bunnyhopping.
You cannot get a bead on them in the air, and even if you do, you hit less and they consequentially retain more force power. Bunnyhopping when facing other gunners, I can understand. It really has very little effect on hitboxes, other than making them smaller and moving faster.
I can. I've shot many a jedi/sith out of the air with an e-11 and Davik has described me as "the worst soldeir alive".
I see it as a balancing factor for the overpowered dark force powers.
Another of my points, is that MT sucks, we've all pretty much acknowledged that. Why should sith get 2 spammable force powers that are widely used and incredibly efficient at killing soldiers and clones while Jedi are being depraved of one of their meager defensive capabilities.
Healbug has already been stated as a bug - I never use it and do well as hell. I just hide and heal when I am low on health.
Mapex, I acknowledge that you are an excellent jedi, but that really doesnt mean anything. Not everyone is as good as you or Acidus and can afford to just drop healbug.
Another of my points is that everyone has become too rigid. Yes, the MB team has acknowledged it is a bug, but I'm saying that it's become a necessary bug in the face of the hordes of anti-jedi weapons on the imperial team. Not to mention, do you guys have any idea what its like to have tons of nooby clones on your team? You'll be defending fine, maintaining force, pushing back enemy explosives, getting ready to advance, when all of a sudden bright blue streaks start hitting you in the back. What do you do then? Slink off into the corners to heal for half an hour?
EDIT: Attention! Admins please remove Meister's vote from the poll! I quote from xfire:
-|Meister|-: My reasons behind why i want things a certain why is because that's what i want, i don't care what other people want.
-|WNxSneaky|-: wtf?
-|WNxSneaky|-: yah meister you shouldnt even have voted on that poll
-|WNxSneaky|-: :P
-|WNxSneaky|-: you dont play jedi at all, you dont know what its like
-|Meister|-: My opinion on the matter is that i'm more important than everyone else.
-|Meister|-: So i must be right,
-|WNxSneaky|-: aha! im quoting that later
-|Meister|-: I used to play jedi/sith, it wasn't that hard.
-|Meister|-: Go ahead.
-|WNxSneaky|-: meister, you suck at jedi
-|WNxSneaky|-: admit it
-|Meister|-: Oh i know, i suck at them now.
-|Meister|-: But i didn't use to.
-|WNxSneaky|-: yah-huh
-|WNxSneaky|-: sure
-|WNxSneaky|-: sureeee!!
-|Meister|-: I'm telling the truth,
-|WNxSneaky|-: ill bet you healbugged too
-|Meister|-: Nope, didn't know how
-|WNxSneaky|-: ok, every single non-noob jedi i have fought against has healbugged
-|WNxSneaky|-: my main point is that its just too hard to control, we should just forget about it
-|Meister|-: My point is i want easy kills.
-|WNxSneaky|-: ...
-|WNxSneaky|-: self-serving biatch
-|Meister|-: It makes me happy.
I dont bother dodging dets anymore. I jump in the air and land right in front of their face. I can survive it, they die 99% of the time, so meh :p
Mapex, I acknowledge that you are an excellent jedi, but that really doesnt mean anything. Not everyone is as good as you or Acidus and can afford to just drop healbug.
Actually, I do use healbug but its for a different reason than most think. I never hotkey any force powers other than push and pull, so healbug is kinda just how heal is for me :/
I do only use it out of fights though.
Pfft... I never said that :rolleyes:
Actually, I do use healbug but its for a different reason than most think. I never hotkey any force powers other than push and pull, so healbug is kinda just how heal is for me :/
I do only use it out of fights though.
You too eh acid?
I got my force powers set up to the number pad lol the only actual force powers assigned to a key are push/pull. The other two buttons are "next force" "use force"
CerberuS
19-03-2005, 20:46
Another of my points, is that MT sucks, we've all pretty much acknowledged that. Why should sith get 2 spammable force powers that are widely used and incredibly efficient at killing soldiers and clones while Jedi are being depraved of one of their meager defensive capabilities.
Don't get me started on Jedi's "meager defensive capabilities"... MT does not suck and it's not common sense that it does. Quite a few people use it and they use it effectively.
Another of my points is that everyone has become too rigid. Yes, the MB team has acknowledged it is a bug, but I'm saying that it's become a necessary bug in the face of the hordes of anti-jedi weapons on the imperial team. Not to mention, do you guys have any idea what its like to have tons of nooby clones on your team? You'll be defending fine, maintaining force, pushing back enemy explosives, getting ready to advance, when all of a sudden bright blue streaks start hitting you in the back. What do you do then? Slink off into the corners to heal for half an hour?
The healbug will not be kept. You see, I've had beta testers telling me the exact same stuff when I stated I was going to fix it. It has been fixed - some days later they had to admit it's still useful in its fixed state.
got my force powers set up to the number pad lol the only actual force powers assigned to a key are push/pull. The other two buttons are "next force" "use force"
I use pgdown/pgup for force select. home-end for push/pull, and insert/del for special keys. Its all very instinctive as its hooked over my movement keys.
Aside of whether people agree or disagree to this, there should be no rules on any server saying whether or not you can use bunnyhop and healbug. Both are currently are under the spotlight with half saying yes, half saying no.
I say there shouldn't be any rules allowing or disallowing it, until there is a certain yes or no, otherwise you are going to find people will be complaining about not being able to use something they can use anywhere else.
I myself use healbug and sometimes bunnyhop, but until something or someone comes out saying it's not allowing, I am going to keep using them.
but also that b17 is coming up soon and will have dealt with those accordingly (so I am informed)
You mean no more bunnyhop...? HELL YEA! Now, does this mean no bunny hop or no hop? Because I occasionally throw in a jump during a gun fight to throw off my opponenet, but 2 or more consecutive jumps being made impossible would be fantastic. I can't wait. As for the healbug.. I've heard of it, but I don't know what it does or how it's done... so I really don't have an opinion on that one.
|_maPex_|
19-03-2005, 21:08
I use pgdown/pgup for force select. home-end for push/pull, and insert/del for special keys. Its all very instinctive as its hooked over my movement keys.
I used to use the force select keys too but they slow you down like mad, especially if you buy lotsa force powers. My solution to all of this was moving from WSAD to EDSF to access more keys. I use A for push, W for pull, Q for speed, X for seeing, v for heal, g for grip, alt for mindtrick/lightning depending on what class i am
Base makes it a little harder but all light/darkside specific forcepowers use G, V, alt, t (i use it for quickjetpack in mb2) and mouse4 (my +button13 in mb2)
used to use the force select keys too but they slow you down like mad, especially if you buy lotsa force powers. My solution to all of this was moving from WSAD to EDSF to access more keys. I use A for push, W for pull, Q for speed, X for seeing, v for heal, g for grip, alt for mindtrick/lightning depending on what class i am
Well I'm as good as you (being generous there :p ), so perhaps it doesnt slow everyone. Personally I think if a jedi/sith has a lot of powers, then none of his powers are as good as they could be. I pick one primary power and play to its strengths.
DaveGrohl
19-03-2005, 23:08
the problem you are going to have here with these 2 bugs are that they are too well intergrated into the community to try to stamp out. You'd have to kick 3/4 of the players if this rule is gonna be put into action
El Vi-Riachi
20-03-2005, 01:02
the problem you are going to have here with these 2 bugs are that they are too well intergrated into the community to try to stamp out. You'd have to kick 3/4 of the players if this rule is gonna be put into action
Don't get me started on Jedi's "meager defensive capabilities"... MT does not suck and it's not common sense that it does. Quite a few people use it and they use it effectively.
The healbug will not be kept. You see, I've had beta testers telling me the exact same stuff when I stated I was going to fix it. It has been fixed - some days later they had to admit it's still useful in its fixed state.
looks like there gonna have to learn to adapt anyway eventually
DaveGrohl
20-03-2005, 01:12
now its been fixed it will jsut stop but if you try to stop it now you'll ahve a hell of a hard time in b16
=DavikKang=
20-03-2005, 01:32
Can't we just agree to disagree?
(and to tk mapex :P)
Bruce Campbell
20-03-2005, 03:23
Meh. There's defense against the both of em, so who cares?
Okay so the main argument in healbugs defence I've heard is "But everyone does it its just part of the game and you shouldn't make us change," cry me a river. If you can't win a fight without healbugging try a diffrent class besides the fact that jedi can deflect bolts and take only 50% of damage when holding block they have push and 1 hit kill weapons. Most jedi also get speed which is an awesom power and MT doesn't suck you just have to use it creatively however I think it costs way to much force to use and way to many points to buy.
And besides if everyone started wall bugging in CC would that make it okay? NO! If everyone started leap frogging jabba again would that make it okay? NO! If everyone started buying staffs and using the speed bug would that make it okay? NO! If everyone started using the ammo bug would that make it okay? NO! I rest my case its a bug and isn't designed to be part of the gameplay.
i can see both sides of the arguement, on one side healbuging is a bug plain and simple and it does give the jedi a large advantage. but on the other side it is the only thing that makes them equal, the abilty to take DMG and heal it well fighting is the only thing that makes them good and it is the only good force power. i agree with sneaky when he says it is the only thing that makes them equal to sith, and i also agree with TheBride when she says that it can only be used at lvl 3 and we should be rewarded when we invest so many points into it, it would be the same as a sith getting lvl 3 grip, u need level 3 block and atleast 50 mana to block it and i think we all know that most jedi usually dont have 50 mana in a large fight. now with bunnyhoping, that should be fixed, cause come on, when a saber or a blaster bolt goes threw the guy and doesnt hurt him....that just aint realistic, and besides i know gymnists that have trained all there life that cant do that, no way in hell will a fat a$$ rodian, or a crumy soldeir do it, and we all know han is packing on the pounds as well. i also understand that bunny hoping is one of the only defense that a gunner has against a jedi or sith, maybe if they made a low cost dodge technique for each class besides jedi/sith/hero/villan to give them a slight advantage against a jedi or sith it would be fine
Dill Pickle
20-03-2005, 05:43
i have no stand on this issue, its easy to kill people who do either of these. no biggy :rolleyes:
The Raging Rodian!
20-03-2005, 06:50
I see it as a balancing factor for the overpowered dark force powers.
Nobody is saying that Lightning and Grip don't need a little pruning, but that's a different thread. I'm pretty sure that the MB team will balance everything out in time.
but on the other side it is the only thing that makes them equal, the abilty to take DMG and heal it well fighting is the only thing that makes them good and it is the only good force power.
Are you crazy? You never use push? Thats a crappy power? You never use speed? Thats a crappy power? You never use force jump? You never use force defence to just block a soldier to death? You never use a lightsaber for a 1 hit kill? jedi > gunners with the possible exeption of manda and thats only because flame is pretty uber right now. You get a skilled jedi fighting a skilled say villian the jedi will win 9 out of 10 times i guarantee it especially if he heal bugs. Even if you don't dets still only do 50% of damage on a jedi if your holding block FIFTY PERCENT THATS HALF THATS A HUGE REDUCTION!!!!!!!! Only full battery SBD and full str wookiee get that advantage besides jedi!!!!!! Now tell me heal is the only power allowing jedi to kill gunners effeciantly. Utter crap a jedi has a huge advantage over gunners plain and simple.
Nobody is saying that Lightning and Grip don't need a little pruning, but that's a different thread. I'm pretty sure that the MB team will balance everything out in time.
Why are you telling this to me? ;)
Are you crazy? You never use push? Thats a crappy power? You never use speed? Thats a crappy power? You never use force jump? You never use force defence to just block a soldier to death? You never use a lightsaber for a 1 hit kill?
I think you'll find Bandit is just saying the -two sides to the argument- not his view on the argument. You're so full of bias that you can't even see that...
You get a skilled jedi fighting a skilled say villian the jedi will win 9 out of 10 times i guarantee it especially if he heal bugs.
And you'll get Sith who use lightning and grip non-stop, with more or less a 90% chance of not losing.
Even if you don't dets still only do 50% of damage on a jedi if your holding block FIFTY PERCENT THATS HALF THATS A HUGE REDUCTION!!!!!!!!
What's damage reduction to dark force powers that can stop the gunner from tossing/firing in the first place? Not much.
Trying to enforce something which is going to be removed is pointless, and a large waste of time. It's surprising people get worked up over healbug, and yet they tend to be sith who kill in one anyway...
yeah , same go for sith complaining about blobs , but self they fricken grip/ligtning spam
or complaining about td's but push as if its the only button they have
remember the Beta-Team wants to balance ALL classes
and not give YOUR favorite class a advantage
Another thing I would like to point out is that even if healbug is removed people will still find something else to complain about.
CerberuS
20-03-2005, 19:47
Another thing I would like to point out is that even if healbug is removed people will still find something else to complain about.
Sure, people always find something to complain about - may it be justified or not. Doesn't mean the healbug should be kept.
[KP] Tokakeke
20-03-2005, 20:41
a little off topic..
I am more appreciative of the mb team now that i'm receiving "Lol, enable this class, do this do that" admin queries 24/7. It must be hard putting up with them, considering you can't just "kick" them :)
DaveGrohl
20-03-2005, 20:57
welcome to my world
Vox Clamantis
20-03-2005, 21:22
I say we make the mod balanced by making all head- or chest-shots instant kills, flame set you on fire and makes you roll around on the floor in mindless agony, thermals blow off parts of your anatomy, and lightsabers cut off limbs - which then cannot be used for the duration of the round.
:rolleyes:
The longer I'm around on these forums, the more I realize how silly people can be about this.
Sorry for making any suggestions, EVER, Team. I can only imagine how these threads look to people who've been around from day one - hell, I've only been here for a matter of months.
~Gabriel
[KP] Tokakeke
20-03-2005, 21:27
actually those are great suggestions
Sneaky I'm comparing jedi to gunners not to sith this thread is about how it makes jedi uber not about how lightning spam and grip spam rule about everything.
Chaos the Chaotic
21-03-2005, 02:32
You cant talk about the one and not expect to talk about the other.
Easy way to eliminate bunnyhoppers, eliminate jump or better yet, change the gravity so no one can jump:) That, or start counting how many times you hop, go over 2 and ur kicked, yep yep yep.
They fixed healbug, end of it.
Bunnyhop, make the force drain when they hop normally, like when jedi/sith force jump, now make it so force drains on normal jumps. U lose bp and force, see, problems fixed.
And ppl have been bunnyhoppin with guns since Duke Nukem. Hah!!!
Looking at the people who have voted and what they voted here is rather interesting.
The mix and the type of people really does show how much these bugs have been integrated into the general b16 playstyle.
In my own personaly opinion it would be an impossible task to try to stop people using these bugs at this point, and while people have voted that they frown upon it, some part of them knows this also.
The Raging Rodian!
21-03-2005, 05:27
Looking at the people who have voted and what they voted here is rather interesting.
The mix and the type of people really does show how much these bugs have been integrated into the general b16 playstyle.
In my own personaly opinion it would be an impossible task to try to stop people using these bugs at this point, and while people have voted that they frown upon it, some part of them knows this also.
On the upside healbug will be gone (yay!) and it should be a fairly easy matter to put jump on a short timer in the next build. It would be like killing two bugs with one build!
They are known bugs. No one can rightfully complain if they are removed.
poojawamanthing
21-03-2005, 14:19
You mean no more bunnyhop...? HELL YEA! Now, does this mean no bunny hop or no hop? Because I occasionally throw in a jump during a gun fight to throw off my opponenet, but 2 or more consecutive jumps being made impossible would be fantastic. I can't wait.
yah so how are you going to get up somewhere to escape jedi/sith and alreay uesd your jump and missed hmm? or maybe your on lunar and your the last reb and you need to unlock the switch and have mandas all around and you miss your jump?
the thing i find that hurts jedi/ sith is that if you have a lightsaber ally that is ready to kill the bunny hoppin foe its easyer to kill because he loses a LOT of bp
[KP] Tokakeke
21-03-2005, 16:24
Well then it's your damn fault you jumped right before a Jedi/sith pushed you.
=Someone=
22-03-2005, 01:26
basically stripping the jedi of one of their abilities (healing with saber up aka healbug) obviously shows that jedi are considered too powerful as they are...i hope you don't mind if i try to add a perspective to the discussion where jedi don't seem that powerful at all. to do that, i'd like you to take a look at some of the most common encounters in MB:
sith vs. jedi:
if you exclude their class-specific force powers, neither jedi nor sith has an advantage, because it comes down to saber skills. yet if you include them, sith will prove way more powerful quickly, here's an everyday example to illustrate it: imagine both force-users, jedi and sith, have force block 1, and approach each other with 75 force points - a situation that happens all the time on every server.
the sith's options:
grip: once gripped the jedi's saber goes down, and a skilled sith will slash him on the spot. the only possible counter is push, which needs to be pointed directly at the sith to be effective. in most cases, if the jedi wont die, he will take at least little to some damage. if the jedi decides to heal without the healbug, he'd decrease his force points below 95 and could easily be gripped again, lightning'ed or sabered down after lowering his saber.
lightning: since the sith has 75 force points, he is able to inflict at least some damage with lvl 3 lightning (i wish i had numbers at this point). again, if the jedi decides to heal without the healbug, he'd decrease his force points below 95 and could easily be gripped, lightning'ed again or simply sabered down, because he lowered his saber.
note: both dark side special abilities leave the sith with his saber up. in this scenario, the jedi will always lose at least a few hitpoints.
i'm sure most of you would suggest to simply get force block, well, my question is, why does the jedi have to spend more points to get force block 2 or 3 (and thus having even less offensive powers), when all a sith ever needs is force block 1 (and thus is able to spend his points more freely). you believe a sith doesn't? read on...
the jedi's options:
mindtrick: can be counterd with sense. if it is countered, the jedi has his saber down and only 25 force points left. ergo, he can once again be gripped, lightning'ed or sabered down easily. the sith takes no damage from mindtrick whatsoever.
note: both light side special abilities leave the jedi with his saber down (=defenseless).
jedi/sith vs. a soldier with a TD
without their class-specific abilities jedi & sith have the exact same possibilities at fighting soldiers (like pushing the TD, jumping, etc.), so let's take a look at their odds when using their unique powers:
the sith's options:
grip: can prevent the gunner from throwing his det. if combined with push it means insta-death on various maps. in most cases, the sith takes no damage. [critical moment: when lifting off the soldier he can throw/drop his det.]
lightning: prevents the gunner from throwing his det effectively. two-handed lightning can knock the soldier down, which means his certain death. in almost every case, the sith takes no damage. lightining does neither take much timing or any skill whatsoever to use. [critical moment: regular soldiers dont have enough hitpoints to escape the area of effect fast enough. only a few very experienced or lucky players can survive lightning, so vitually none]
note: the sith doesn't have to use his saber to kill (during the swing, he'd be vulnerable).
the jedi's options:
mind trick: can be countered by turning the speakers on (and also by 'ghosting' teammates.) [critical moments: since the jedi's saber is down, a det or a wildely shooting gunner can damage or kill the force-user. to kill the gunner, the jedi has to swing, which makes him vulnerable again].
crouching: the jedi can simply crouch towards the soldier and wait for the det to explode. even a primary fire TD wont kill a blocking jedi, and he can heal the damage. since primary fire TD's cause the soldier to blow himself up, most of the time the jedi wont get a kill (scorewise) for crouching.
note: the jedi has to either push the det back or swing to score a kill, both hold a risk for the jedi since he's vulnerable during the swing and the push-animation.
team fights
its a part of mb balance that no class can easily survive against 2 enemies. it is possible with skill, we all know that, but if you had to fight 2 enemies that are exactly as skilled as yourself, would you survive?
yet compared to jedi, sith do have an edge when fighting with a teammate as well, here are some examples:
2 sith vs. 1 jedi
the 2 sith can easily wear down the jedi's blockpoints, so sooner or later, the majority of players (more that 90% from my personal experience) will start to jump in order to dodge their swings. since jumping drains force, after a few hops he'll be an easy victim to grip or lightning. even if he survives the first grip through push, the jedi's saber is down now and he has lost even more bp (if he still had any), if he doesn't get sabered down now, the second sith has most likely more than enough force left to grip him again... what i'm trying to say is the odds of surviving two sith who know how to use their force powers are indeed very slim...
on the other hand 2 jedi have no advantage whatsoever by using their force powers when fighting a single sith, it's solely about saber skills and teamwork. mindtrick would only help to backstabb the sith, but that is easy enough already if your teammate isn't too inexperienced (it is safe to say that, in this situation, mind trick would simply be a waste of skill- and force-points).
1 sith & 1 gunner vs. 1 jedi
if the jedi has force block 1, a few shots from the gunner's blaster suffice to make him gripable. while gripped he's an easy target for the gunner. even if he successfully countered the grip, his saber is still down, so he's still defenseless. the only way a jedi could increase his chance to survive such an attack would be to spend points on force block.
there is no equivalent to that for jedi. (this is another example that there is virtually no need for a sith to ever have more than force block 1)
1 sith & 1 gunner vs. 1 gunner
the sith can incapacitate the gunner with lightning while his teammate accelerates the enemies death with gunfire.
there is again no equivalent for jedi.
some more thoughts:
jedi have to fight enemies that use guns, melee, flames, rockets, grip, lightning and dets.
sith on the other hand only have to fight enemies that use guns, melee, blobs, mindtrick and dets and they can effectively prevent the enemy from using those with grip and lightning. (the only exception are jedi and wookiees, yet only if some requirements are met.)
jedi fight 3 enemies that are under certain circumstances 100% immune to their force powers: deka, sbd (with adv. logic and some energy left) and sith (with forceblock and the appropriate amount of force points)
sith only have 1 enemy that, under certain circumstances, is 100% immune to all of his powers: the jedi. (which, in my opinion, is the main reason why so many matches turn into 'jedi-spam')
i could still write on, but it might have been more than enough to read already.
it's seems the core argument of those against healbug is that healing with the saber up can negate all efforts made to decrease the jedi's hitpoints. well, it seems to me that jedi have enough disadvantages already...
CerberuS
22-03-2005, 01:50
The main mistake when judging the Jedi balance is taking Sith as reference. At least lightning is not balanced in B16.
A bug is a bug. It has been fixed, discussing about it is pretty pointless as we're not gonna undo a bugfix - and there is not even a necessity to do so.
The speed of healing is not bugged - it will be the same as in B16. Same for force consumption. You are interpreting way too much into this bugfix.
=Someone=
22-03-2005, 02:08
A bug is a bug. It has been fixed, discussing about it is pretty pointless as we're not gonna undo a bugfix
i'm glad i read that now ^^
Honestly I never saw anything wrong with bunnyhopping, until the other day I was playing as wookiee fighting a sith, the sith was bunnyhopping while i was timing my shots and trying to hit him in the air; the only problem was my shots went through his body a few times and ended up hitting a Jedi in the face that was both behind him and below him. Bunnyhopping is a useful tool against tds and alt fire, but against single e-11 gunners it can get a little buggy, not to mention it looks absolutely ridiculous. Imagine during episode II in the battle of Geonosis, 200 jedi bunnyhopping over thousands of shots <pictures the sight> ROFL!
|_maPex_|
22-03-2005, 08:58
Again, I'd like to reiterate for bunnyhop lovers that bunnyhop itself does not let you "dodge bullets" like Neo or Boris the Blade. It's the fact that any vertical movement messes up with the buggy hitboxes. You will see that slashing a Mandalorian who is mid-way into shooting his rocket also causes this problem because he is jumping and doing a flip in air. ARCs also get their cool dex moves that bug up hitboxes a lot. Sometimes a Mandalorian can bug up while jetpacking but I believe because he is constantly in air it isn't as bad as moving from ground to mid-air and back again via hopping.
The problem with bunnyhop in CS was it gave you an unrealistic speedboost. When they fixed that bunnyhopping is perfectly legal but messes up your aim. In MB2 bunnyhopping is bad only because of the hitboxes but other than that I have no problem with it. Bunnyhopping to give your enemy trouble trying to aim at you - kinda unrealistic but I can live with it. But bunnyhopping to take advantage of a bug is just not cool. I am not the only one who observes that bunnyhopping hitbox bugginess exists. You all may wanna experiment if you really doubt the validity of my and Stilgar's observations.
I'd like someone to explain how we're supposed to stop an unpushable wookie who can run backwards faster than we can walk and is armed with an incredible forcedraining weapon + explosives without jumping a considerable amount.
Lets look at the facts:
A wookie bolt, charged or no can kill a full hp-sith in one (two if its uncharged and glancing) hit, especially at close range. The wookie charge shot still drains an inordinate amount of fp even when crouching/blue stance up. The wookie can hop backwards faster than we can run, let alone crouch. He can shoot through our lightning and hit us while we drain almost no hp by frying him. So what do we do? accept our fate and shuffle towards him while he puts even more distance between us. Eventually he's going to bleed off our fp and blow us to kingdom come. Even with bunnyhop its still difficult taking down a talented wook, since a 1 hit kill charge bolt can be performed faster than a medium swing (the only truly effective melee attack method against wookies). The only way to get to a wookie 1vs1 is to fly at him so he doesnt have time to react and hopefully get in his face enough to freak him out so you can cleave him.
so explain how this is fair and bunnyhop should be taken out:
wookies have the advantage of range, knockdown explosives, better attacking/defending power than sith (it takes at least 2 swings to kill a wookie, one shot to kill a sith). Sith have TEH LAME GRIP! which doesnt work and lightning which also doesnt work (it does no damage and sith can be shot out while frying). All they have is jump and speed, and all of you know that sith vs wookie the wookie is in control. Now you guys wanna take that out! This is just going to further all Sith being dogmeat for wookies and ARCs that both have built-in resistances for their powers as well as ridiculously draining weapons.
Let him run back, after he's out of idr the caster won't drain crap, except charged shots, and two of them empty a clip.
From you assumptions he'd have (correct me if i'm wrong, i don't recall points exactly): 8+9+10 (level 3 bowcaster +5+10+20 (level 3 strenght) = 62 points
18 left, enough for 1 thermal and a level of health/ammo. Hell either have an effective ammount of 200 Hp and decent ammo or 250 Hp and enough ammo for 3-4 clips tops. 200 Hp is what a heavy mand can get (unless you count punched/falls), but he's slower.
So: if he has ammo you can try to deflect him to death (might need to fall back to recover force), if he has health he's gonna run out of ammo, even more if he uses charged shots, so you can try to make him shoot.
Even without force powers jedi/sith can weaken gunners in other ways, every single deflection counts, except against jedi who can heal, and every wasted shot outside idr/to a jedi/sith who later ran away to recover force can mean they run out of ammo, and wookiees tend to do that a lot.
Sneaky wookiees are the rebels anti-sith because sith tear thru almost every other unit, even arcs if you catch one off guard or use lightning/grip right. Because sith have grip/lightning which both mean instant death for anyone they touch because grip has the stun so you just grip for a second run up and slash and lightning has mad damage a huge arc long distnace and stops gunners from firing. Only 2 rebel units are immune to those powers, jedi and wookiees, and wookiees aren't even fully immune to lightning it still deals damage combined with hop a sith can kill a wookiee with lightning and a little luck. And like alesh said if a wookiee has lvl 3 str and bowcaster he doesn't have much else Maybe level 1 health and level 3 ammo so he has 450 max ammo and a charge shot expends about 1/3 a clip and each clip is 50 ammo, so compare that to pretty much any other gun and its not much. And remember that bowcasters dont have godly accuracy a wookiee can miss a charged shot especially if hes hopping or running and if the sith is hopping. So really rebels have 2 effective anti-sith gunners, and even they can get spanked by a sith something fierce if the sith is good, where as any unit basically can take out a jedi with some luck on the imp team, I've killed jedi with a soldier with just a TD and a few well aimed blaster shots so don't go saying sith will suck without hop because they're killing machines anyway you put it.
You have got to be joking me. Deflection kills against charged shot wookies is possibly the stupidest way of fighting them. I get hit once by a charged shot and all my force is gone. Alesh, its not a matter of wasting his ammo. Lets picture this, I'm dodging a few wookie bolts and when I finally get close enough all he has to do is shoot me once and im dead. It takes two swings to kill him. Somehow that doesnt stack up as fair. The fact is when you're fighting a good wookie like fell or rell you have no chance. Simply because the fight is completely in their hands. Your survival depends on their ability to aim. Getting close enough for a swing will result in a bolt that sends you about 40 feet backwards and down for the count. Also, lightning doesnt work. It doesnt drain health at maintainable rate with str 3 (you could waste 2 whole bars of force on one wookie). Hopping around with lightning will simply result in the wookie switching to rapid fire and blowing you out of the air or when you land.
Sneaky wookiees are the rebels anti-sith because sith tear thru almost every other unit, even arcs if you catch one off guard or use lightning/grip right
I already had this debate with Corsair. If you catch an Arc off-guard or backstab him with a lightsaber, sure he dies. Same with a Sith. A charged shot from either arc pistols or bowcaster is sure to kill a sith who's guard is down. Grip on arcs, hmm. They fly over you and get a free shot at your head. Lightning is, iffy. It does damage but the arc can run away and not expect to be knocked down (also it drains force, which the arc pistols drain VERY fast).
Only 2 rebel units are immune to those powers, jedi and wookiees, and wookiees aren't even fully immune to lightning it still deals damage combined with hop a sith can kill a wookiee with lightning and a little luck.
Are sith immune to e-11's? No. Are sith immune to dets? Definitely not. Look at the stats. Wookies have the advantage of range, they can kill a sith in charged hits (one shot to drain the force, the other to kill them). They can bunnyhop backwards nearly as fast as the sith can run, and of course running would be stupid considering a wookie can one hit kill a running sith. They can take more punishment at close range than a sith, even though sith are a melee class. They are immune to all the offensive force powers the sith have in their arsenal (with the exception of lightning that drains a sith force and leaves him vulnerable). They have access to explosives, with which they can det a sith down and then fry him. Wookies have EVERY advantage over sith. Even if the sith gets close enough for a swing a wookie can still blow him away with a charge shot or rapid fire to knock him back faster than he can medium swing. Even if he DOES land the hit, the wookie will survive it and kill him. Even more annoying is that wookies cannot be caught offguard and backstabbed. Walk up behind a wookie and start chopping him. Chances are:
1. at least one of the swings passes through and does nothing.
2. the swings that do land do not kill him.
3. he turns around and bolts you in the face. You die.
The thing is, wookis aren't just anti-sith. Take the wookie vs Gunner situation. A high powered bowcaster fires almost as fast as an e-11, does a crapload more damage and has a scope. The wookie can kill a mandie in 3 hits . It is more maneuverable than the SBD, has a more versatile melee attack, and of course the gun does considerably more damage. There is no battery that limits its movement or damage sustained. Soldiers and villains do not (and should not) stand a chance against a wookie, given that the dets do not knock the wookie down, and the e-11 works more like an Airsoft gun than a lethal weapon against wookie hide. Plus, they die in one hit. Anyway, the point of this is that you guys still wanna take bunnyhop out when there are menaces like wookies on the loose.
Mr_Oujamaflip
02-04-2005, 10:42
Dets DO knock the wookiees down, i get it myself
i think they shoudl keep healbug in, but lower the rate at which it heals u.
El Vi-Riachi
02-04-2005, 12:59
i think they shoudl keep healbug in, but lower the rate at which it heals u.
you cant get any lower other than 1 hp at a time, heal bug is what it is, a bug and i doubt very much it will be possible to do in the future.
and sneaky you have to take into account all the bugs that get used atm also, more then likely most ppl ammo bug (dont ask what it is) now if that was not possible to do you will have a wookiee with a bowcaster yes (very expensive) and 200 ammo if he has lvl 1 ammo, the rest will be in lvl 3 strenght, lvl 2 health, so when the wook runs out of ammo he's in trouble, the current bugs everyone uses unbalances alot of things, heal bug ammo bug etc, and you need to take them into consideration before saying wookiees are that bad, wookiees are fine, or will be fine once these exploits are fixed.
Dill Pickle
02-04-2005, 13:13
to be completely honest bunny hop is fine, there is only one situation i can think of where it fudges up (mando flame+bunnyhop) that is only time i can thing of where a hit does not connect, other then when you push someone to ground and you hit em on ground and it goes right through them :rolleyes: you can kill all gunner classes easy who bunnyhops if your at all a good shot :p
For a guy named Sneaky it sure seems strange that you approach fights as a one time deal, let them waste ammo, get some deflections in, retreat, regen force... you run faster than them. Use sight, to detect them, catch them off guard.
Play your strenghts, and your opponent's weaknesses.
El Vi-Riachi
02-04-2005, 13:41
Play your strenghts, and your opponent's weaknesses.
and not as a 1 man army rambo style :p
Yes sneaky, I too used healbug at the start of B16. I didn't even know it was a bug. I mean its the default when you press heal :confused: Didn't seem like a bug at the time. But since then I've given up jedi and went gunner, and saw how unfair it is. Soldiers are doomed because even if they suicide therm, by the time the soldier returns they've completely healed. Bunnyhop+heal is even worse, hard to hit and they're healing without losing force. Gunner bunnyhop, fine, you'll die. Wookiee bunnyhop...KILL THE WOOKIEES!!! Anyway there's no way to enforce this fairly so as for a big game on the GS server I wouldn't kick for it...but guys it IS a bug, don't use it if you can find it in yourself :D
and not as a 1 man army rambo style :p
They'll never see it coming!
I use healbug only when out of fights. I try to use it as heal is intended, rather than use it in fights etc which is where the bug causes imbalance.
I use heal in fights where im fighting more than one or if im dueling someone and i get nicked for 2 hp :P sry don't feel like dieing for bs reasons.
Bunny hopping is fine, if you noobs would take the time to realise that when they bunny hop they can only go in one direction, otherwise they're sitting ducks, this might not be such a huge issue. Aim your damn guns, lead your shots /gasp the basics of any FPS game.
WhiteShark
05-04-2005, 13:17
I use heal in fights where im fighting more than one or if im dueling someone and i get nicked for 2 hp :P sry don't feel like dieing for bs reasons.
Bunny hopping is fine, if you noobs would take the time to realise that when they bunny hop they can only go in one direction, otherwise they're sitting ducks, this might not be such a huge issue. Aim your damn guns, lead your shots /gasp the basics of any FPS game.
if we run around bunny hopping jedis, we'll get pushed :rolleyes:
if a mand flames, the jedi uses the heal bug again..
Why don't you try to take out a cheating jedi a few times, it's not as easy as you 'only-jedi-players' think..
Dill Pickle
05-04-2005, 23:02
if we run around bunny hopping jedis, we'll get pushed :rolleyes:
if a mand flames, the jedi uses the heal bug again..
Why don't you try to take out a cheating jedi a few times, it's not as easy as you 'only-jedi-players' think..
i don't play jedi only and i still think the only time bunny hop is lame is mando/flame
BUT i used to think sith lightning+bh was lame, but when facing a blober not completly fair. :p
Bunny hopping is fine, if you noobs would take the time to realise that when they bunny hop they can only go in one direction, otherwise they're sitting ducks, this might not be such a huge issue. Aim your damn guns, lead your shots /gasp the basics of any FPS game.
Good, now try that at very close range. I want to bet the bunnyhopper has about 95% more chance of hitting the ground player in the head then the ground player hitting the bunnyhopper in the head... :rolleyes:
I Like healbug, dont like the other. So i just voted no....
Bunny hopping is fine, if you noobs would take the time to realise that when they bunny hop they can only go in one direction, otherwise they're sitting ducks, this might not be such a huge issue. Aim your damn guns, lead your shots /gasp the basics of any FPS game.
Oh yes tell us how to play gunners mighty trog-dor because you certainly know how to do it being that your always jedi/sith :rolleyes: . The basics of an FPS game don't totally apply when its no longer a first person SHOOTER and becomes a third person saber spam fest. You go play soldier for a while against teams of all hopping jedi/sith then tell me how fair it is.
|_maPex_|
12-04-2005, 00:50
TrogDor, play a wookie or ARC against a bunnyhopping Sith. The only times I cannot kill an enemy Sith of any skill level in a 1v1 as either of those two classes is because of his bunnyhopping. And my aim is like an aimbot's, according to many people.
Weeee for self promoting posts, Mapex? :p
Yes, people who practice gunners can aim quite well. ;)
Bunnyhopping is a very large problem, and will be dealt with in the next build, lets get over it, aye?
Valentine
12-04-2005, 06:21
Ive played for ages now and I still dont get what healbugging is.
WhiteShark
12-04-2005, 15:40
Read my signature.
Ive played for ages now and I still dont get what healbugging is.
Being able to heal without turning off the saber.
Pressing F with your saber on while not blocking dosean't turn it off. Is that considered the healbug as well?
Shippo, that IS the healbug.
Shippo, that IS the healbug.
I meant healing while your saber is not in the blocking position. So Jedi should manually switch to melee then heal for it to not be considered a bug?
Well, it is a very obvious bug...one I'm not sure how slipped through the cracks...but assigning a key to just heal, I suppose, is what you are supposed to do.
wow, as of the time im posting this the current vote is exactly 50/50 with 32/32... thats crazy. Bunny hop is ok I think since its not even that effective for a gunner I don't use it.. but to each his own.
Saberists bunny hopping can be rough tho, but I blame that more on the force powers.
healbugging can be a tough habbit to break, I try not to use it but rarely I do since I have to reach all the way over to f5 to avoid it. I will usualy retreet, heal, and then come back when im fighting things like mandas or thermals.
I have faith that the mb teamw ill have fixed heal for b17
With the inordinate amount of bug abusers in MB, I can see how the vote ended up like that. -.0
I meant healing while your saber is not in the blocking position. So Jedi should manually switch to melee then heal for it to not be considered a bug?
The bug is the saber not turning off when using heal, the exploit is using it where having it down would put you at a disadvantage (in combat).
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