who will you vote for! [Archive] - MovieBattles Community

Chroniktoke

30-10-2004, 01:35

Chron...
You are bigger danger to yourself than a terrorist is to you.
Fact. :rolleyes:
0 USAns killed on US soil on year 1999
0 on 2000
3000 on 2001
0 on 2002
0 on 2003
An USAn person gets killed by another once in a minute.
60*1=60, 60 killed in 1 hour
24*60=1440, 1440 killed in one day
7*1440=10080, 10080 in one week.
Now, total sums.
Terrorists, about 3000 people during 5 years.
USAns, about 10000 people in one week.
Which one is a greater danger?

im going to tell you once, TRUST me there are BAD poverty-full areas on this place, and there are richer better places that WILL end up bad and full of crime, but are great places now.

America has felt the ultimate pains ,we lost over 5,000 people in the twin towers, and they will do it all day if we dont have the right leader taking the place of commanding this country, they can easily use their biological weapons and what-not, and no telling else unless the Al Quida turns into a meer memory.

I suggest if you dont live here, you should check on who should lead this great country, American history is beautiful and new, but makes soo much of an impact, (we fought out the numbers and came out on top) , we are different ,and if you beleive in democratic laws and leadings, then i suggest you do some DEEP research on the republican party over the democratic party,

John Kerry, WHAT has he proved wrong that i CANNOT argue with,bring it on whatever you have to reply.

Mazoon

30-10-2004, 01:46

Wrong. 3000 people in towers+planes.
Biological weapons... Bah. Same stuff USA used in Vietnam. Still somebody lives there. Sure, Iraq has biological weapons. Bush senior gave them to Saddam himself. A fact.

And the Great Question:
What makes USA so great? So superior to every other nation?

And, before you start arguing... Read "Dude, where's my country?".
It is the book to fix the world.

Mazoon

30-10-2004, 02:10

Okay, answer to previous question.
Nationalism.
Nationalism makes everybody think that their nation is the greatest.
Nationalism...
A way to destroy everything. Yes.
Nationalist-socialists... Not too great people, were they?
Nationalism makes a person blow something up.
Nationalism makes the victimcountry blow the persons country up.
And can you still say nationalism is good thing?
Kill everyone just because you cant tolerate anyone else?

And yes... Terrorists... They are no mindless wackos who just blow a place up without any reason. Most often they do it for their nation.
And the terrorist hunt... It is done for the nation.

Hippies... They had the style. Why fight? Lets just have a Peace.

Tenken

30-10-2004, 02:34

mazoon peace is but the fabled dream of a mad man unless you can get EVERYONE to agree on damn near everything you cant have peace most terrosits attack us because they see us as inferior because of thier religion they think were ignorant stupid and without morals... ok the without morals part i wont argue with but other then that its just propiganda over there dont sympithize with them just because theyre the underdog.. and no im not one of those ppl who thinks that every religion but mine is wrong but thiers is overly zealous well some sects are i shouldnt generalize
and what makes our country so great? well there are quite a few things but on the other hand quite a few things that make it terrible we are as terrible as we are great and part of that is people listening always to the media over here and how gullible people can be now not everything the media says is a lie or is bad but they tend to focus on the negative its propaganda to inspire nationalism
i honestly dont know if i consider america the "greatest country in the world" its a matter of opinion i dont like society in america for one because its to shallow and materialistic and id have to say greed prevails over most other things which is really quite sad
on the upside tho this is indeed the "land of the free" i say that because of freedom of speech and the press above all other things you can express what you want how you want to and although people may try to stop you you still have the right to say it

Mazoon

30-10-2004, 02:38

World... It is a sick place.

Peace cant be forced.
Amen.

CT-272

30-10-2004, 02:47

Hmm, uhm... Turd Sandwhich!
Is this a trick question?

Psst, close this thread... it reads flame wars on the blurb.

=Profcorron=

30-10-2004, 02:58

Ummm.

Chron USA isn't a democracy desided by the people. In fact its desided by a commity.

Becuase just after the break from britten the genreals desided that the people would make the wrong chose.

Which is true.

Look at the mess most places are. they just didn't make better desitions.

=DavikKang=

30-10-2004, 03:05

Oh boy! A political thread! :D

Mazoon is right about the nationalism thing. Every country thinks that they are the best and that other countries are arrogant and/or evil. So lets try to keep away from the usual America's the best/ America's evil stuff.

Bush: I think he is one of the best leaders in the past 100 years.

Afgahnistan: He did what the Soviets tried to do earlier in Afgahnistan and did it with minimal casualties on both sides. When the Soviets went in, they deliberately murdered countless civilians (including making the infamous bomb-dolls and leaving them for the children to blow themselves up). :mad: Civilian casualties happen in every war btw, and the Afgahnistan and Iraqi wars have the lowest civilian casualties of all time. Bush had every right to move in because they were harboring their 'guest' Bin Laden. After defeating them, he then spent millions to help restore their country and give them their own government.

Iraq: This is the main reason a lot of people hate Bush. They accuse him of going in to get the oil, yet why have I been paying over twice as much money for car gas since the war? We have not had their oil. People also debate the issue of whether or not the weapons of mass destructions existed, so I would like to two things. First, the United States and the UN repeatedly warned Sadam that they were going to come in and inspect the country. After saying no for 13 (or so) years, he finally let them have a little restricted tour of the old plants. With the amount of time Sadam had, he could have hidden every last bit of weaponry he had. In addition to this, Iraq is a big place and stuff can be hidden anywhere. They recenly found a Mig fighter buried in the sand. Now if they can bury a jet, they could easily bury a few small missiles (also, Russian special forces moved a very large amount of weaponry out into neiboring countries right before the invasion because of their big weapons deal that they made with them, this is confirmed). Second, even if there were no WMDs, Bush had every right to move in. Sadam was in direct violation of the treaty for over 10 years. He was doing the exact same thing that Hitler did before WWII. So not only policitally did Bush have a reason to move in, but there was also a very good moral reason. Sadam was killing millions of his own people that opposed him (not to mention the genocide against the Kurds). Remember the war on Kosovo? The genocide that that guy (forgot his name temporaily) was commiting was nothing compared to what Sadam was doing in Iraq. So if you supported the war in Kosovo and not in Iraq, you are inconsistent in your persuasions. Finally, the war in Iraq was possibly the best invasion ever. American (and her allies') forces moved in and captured virtually the entire country within a week. They captured most of a very well equipped army of 300,000 with almost no casualties (not to mention low casualties on the Iraqi side). After taking the country, Bush started to rebuild it like in Afgahnistan.
BTW: The accusations against Cheyne for having his former company do the work in Iraq so that he can get a kickback are unsubstantiated. He is getting money from the company, but it is just a retirement fund that does not change at all if the company does well.

P.S. Since people can feel very passionatly about political issues, let's try to keep things civil here. Don't attack the person, attack the argument politely. lets not let this thread turn into another insulting session like some of the others.

Bah! I need to go. Come back next time for Kerry. :p

Tenken

30-10-2004, 03:12

P.S. Since people can feel very passionatly about political issues, let's try to keep things civil here. Don't attack the person, attack the argument politely. lets not let this thread turn into another insulting session like some of the others.
here here davik i want this thread to be a good place to have intelligent debates not just ignorant arguments cuz i like to talk about this thing trouble is finding people who will talk about it and havnt been totally persuaded by propagnada

Chairwalker

30-10-2004, 03:14

I really thinks you Americans have a messed up political system.
Here in The Netherlands just about each part of the political spectrum is represented by a political party.
Whereas you guys have to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

But dont take that as a "OMGZORZ MAH COUNTRY IS TEH LEETZORZ" thingy.

Tenken

30-10-2004, 03:19

lol chairwalker i take it u saw the new southpark?
in any case ur for the most part right tho because we only have a 2 party political system which is stupid as hell and beyond that the popular vote doesnt mean a damn thing the electoral colleges decide everything and while the popular vote MAY influence the electoral college it doesnt always

[KP] Tokakeke

30-10-2004, 04:13

[QUOTE=Chroniktoke]Ok John Kerry:
blames everything on the "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION(which was 1 on 24 reasons we went to iraq)" being "HIS" reason bush is a bad president.

/QUOTE]

One of 24 reasons?

Funny that you say that. WMDs were used as the first case for war, then "removing Saddam from power". Yes, the majority of the Iraqi citizens DID want Saddam out, but not the U.S. in.

I was going to attach a nice little essay I did about the Iraq war and it's connection to the Just War Theory & in some part Vietnam, but it's on my laptop. I'll post it later.

[KP] Tokakeke

30-10-2004, 04:27

Mazoon, to clarify a few of your posts from my knowledge of the Vietnam War:

Biological weapons were not used in Vietnam. Various defoliating agents were used that debatably harm civilians and U.S. personnel. The better term would be 'unintentional-chemical weapons'.

And Nationalism really isn't that bad. In the 40s and 50s, Vietnam fought against French imperialists that treated the Vietnamese as slaves. The nationalist movement called the Viet Minh headed by Ho Chi Minh finally liberated the country at the battle of Dien Bien Phu. The French outnumbered the Vietnamese by hundreds, but the Vietnamese prevailed. The nationalists were fighting against an inhuman and essentially evil occupation of their territory. In the Vietnam War, the U.S. failed to realize communism from Russia and China wasn't causing Vietnam to adopt a communist government! The nationalists fought the american troops, and eventually won. The Viet Cong was so devoted to their own nation's independence that women and children joined the VC. Obviously, nationalism shouldn't be classified as "bad" all the time.

StonewallMcGee

30-10-2004, 04:59

im tired of a 1.5 trillion deficit...even if it means our "defense"...we dont need MORE frickin defense...we've already got enough of it!!!!!!!!!!!
when clinton left the presidancy, there was a 3 trillion dollar budget surplus! where did it all go? thats all im gonna say...

Stonewall :cool:

P.S. Im not saying Kerry WILL do anything better in terms of budget, but at this point in time, i like what he'd do for the country, seeing as when he leaves office, ill be getting ready to buy a house, marry, etc. Peace Y'all!

P.S.S. oh and btw...RED SOX DID IT!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!! WOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tenken

30-10-2004, 05:05

im tired of a 1.5 trillion deficit!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE]
i think its 3 trillion there stonewall ;) but thats besides the point the government is usually always in debt and wars usually help bring us out ever hear of the great depression? of corse ya have! guess how we got out of that... WWI thats right WWI if it wasnt for that we might STILL be in the great depression.. ok well thats pretty unlikely but im sure you understand what im saying but thanks for ur input i hadnt ever heard anyone say anything about the deficet for the election before

RUFIOKID

30-10-2004, 07:10

uh... i tihnk bush will be bad for earth =/ he is gana start pumping oil outta antartica i think :eek: ( witch i hope doesent happen) well i think kerry isnt better altho b/c i think the resond we went war with iraq is b/c 1. the oil 2. the guns 3. the boms :mad: why else do you think they burned the oil field thingies b/c we wanted the oil one day were gana over flow with water b/c of the oil XD b/c we are going to sink in the holes that we pumped outta the oil witch means CALIFORNIA WILL SINK O NO! well im dead if they pump out all the oil any way i dont think any of them is good so i choose the turd sandwitch :p
p.s altho kerry did go to college mabey he'll be better ( i hope :eek: )

=DavikKang=

30-10-2004, 07:33

ever hear of the great depression? of corse ya have! guess how we got out of that... WWI thats right WWI

I believe you mean WWII
;)

"I'm tired of a 1.5 trillion deficit"
Keep in mind that any impact the president has upon an economy usually takes around 5-10 years after he implements his policies before the economy changes from them (with the exception of Grey Davis). The economy doesn't change overnight after the president signs a bill, they take a long time to be implemented fully and to have their impact. The vaunted economics of Clinton were actually the fruit of the seeds planted by Reagan and Bush Senior. America is now reaping the fruit of Clinton's economical policies, not George W.'s

Tenken

30-10-2004, 08:11

rufio no cantidate since roosevelt has had much or anything to do with conservation and the way were going were gunna pump the planet dry of oil and then be screwed because we refuse to develop alternative forms of energy simply because no one wants to put the effort/money forth to do so its sad really but its true once the oils gone its gone it wont come back so we need to find alternate power sources and start using them not when the oils gone but now! any of the other alternate power sources could be just as if not more useful then oil if we had any of them on such a scale as we do oil currently i think 80% or so of all power comes from oil usage but if we put forth effort that could change theres plenty of alternatives

ACiDuS

30-10-2004, 19:55

Chron...
You are bigger danger to yourself than a terrorist is to you.

Yeah, I'm surprised he doesnt fall down more too.

and sadaam said he was partnered with that organization

Untrue. In fact, saddam and osama have always been sworn enemies. Due to their relationships it was only after america destroyed iraq that al queda was able to gain a foothold in the country.

America has felt the ultimate pains ,we lost over 5,000 people in the twin towers

How is that a reason to vote for bush? You realise it was under his watch that this tragedy was allowed to happen? And since then 2 countries have been invaded, their oil interests seized and the actual people who committed 9/11 have been let off the hook.

they can easily use their biological weapons and what-not, and no telling else unless the Al Quida turns into a meer memory.

I assume you refer to iraq? That had no biological weapons, or in fact, banned weapons or any kind.

"WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION(which was 1 on 24 reasons we went to iraq)"

Actually all governments involved used this as the only reason for going to war. The other reasons you and the rest of the ignorant have been feed were made up afterwards. To put this straight, regime change as a reason for war is one of the most illegal things that is possible, so was never used as a reason to justify war until after the fact.

Personally I'm shocked that the polls are so close. America under bush is a horrible country. Its uses freedom as a reason for genocide and invasion... it uses self defence as a reason for tyranny. Bush led USA resembles nazi germany more than the country it used to be under good leaders like clinton... and it saddens me that the nations tendancy toward blind national pride has blinded so many people to it. For gods sake, under the bush administration america even set up concentration camps (outside of their own borders so they could avoid abiding by their own law).

I'm sure I'll get plenty of flames and counter arguments from people who are fed their opinions by government news agencies... but just this once, look around and try to think for yourself. It shocks me that so many people support an evil, illiterate warmonging hitler like bush.

Tenken

30-10-2004, 20:20

acididus those are pretty hateful things to say how can u compare bush to hitler? no man in history has been more terrible then he bush isnt perfect but who is? and where do u get ur information from? although im not sure if its all untrue i seriously doubt that most or any of that is true. and as for the attacks happening under bushes watch do u think if gore had been pres. they wouldnt have happened? cuz if you do thats just foolishness they would have im sure and what do you think he would have done probably rolled over for the terrorists and tryed to nagotiate with them these people cannot be negotiated with period theyre too overly zealous a few may listen but for the most part the majority of al quida wouldnt
i think bush is a great man who has done much for the country but unfortuneatly he jumps on situations a bit to fast i think he pry should have looked more into saddams regiem before attacking it but i think in the end its probably beter he did because there isnt any way to see into the future and predict what kind of things a man like saddam would have done not only to the usa but israel and other countries

^RaPToR

30-10-2004, 21:25

Chron...
You are bigger danger to yourself than a terrorist is to you.
Fact. :rolleyes:
0 USAns killed on US soil on year 1999
0 on 2000
3000 on 2001
0 on 2002
0 on 2003
An USAn person gets killed by another once in a minute.
60*1=60, 60 killed in 1 hour
24*60=1440, 1440 killed in one day
7*1440=10080, 10080 in one week.
Now, total sums.
Terrorists, about 3000 people during 5 years.
USAns, about 10000 people in one week.
Which one is a greater danger?

I would like to add....
*Russia has almost twice the number of judges and magistrates as compared to US, but US has 8 times more crimes committed than Russia.
* 40,000,000 people insure themselves against Alien Invasion In the U.S.
*Each square kilometer of land across the east coast holds on average enough metric tons of bodily fat to make a 5m layer of lard covering all the U.K.
*Even "Top" U.S goverment officials have denied that saddam and Al-Qaeda are linked.
* The War on Iraq was proclaimed Illegal, by the U.N.
* The war on iraq was codenamed Operation Iraqi Liberation (O.I.L,) but it was changed at the last minute to Operation Iraqi Freedom. Can You Guess Why?
*Almost all world threats have been in a war with the U.S.
* U.S. Like to thing they won both world wars on their own. (Liek to point out the Triple Entente's Third Allie, Russia, was no good what so ever, under the Tsar They were defeated within one year and the communist rebelled in 1917.)

P.S. "Don't blame the U.S for Hiroshima, they needed to see if it worked...."

^RaPToR

30-10-2004, 21:28

how can u compare bush to hitler? no man in history has been more terrible then he

Actually, Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler!

they can easily use their biological weapons and what-not, and no telling else unless the Al Quida turns into a meer memory. Said Chron

Iraq had around 5 missles of about 100km range, 10km over the limit.
These were destroyed and the U.N Inspectors cleared Iraq of wrong doing.
If the U.S is so dedicated to destroying such missles, why do they have so many and what was the Cold War Arms Race All About.

Al Quida is spelt Al-Qaeda

and..... The dead British Troops(WHo were bombed by American Smart Bombs,) Iraqi Innocents and U.S Soldiers totals up as a greater loss than the number of people who died in 9/11.

"Never Let Americans Program Smart Bombs, You Would Be Better Of Giving the Task To A British Three Year Old." Quote Me 2004

=DavikKang=

30-10-2004, 21:49

Untrue. In fact, saddam and osama have always been sworn enemies. Due to their relationships it was only after america destroyed iraq that al queda was able to gain a foothold in the country.

I am not sure about the Bin Laden part, but I know that Iraq supported all forms of terrorism. Just one of which is to pay $30,000 to the family of any suicide bomber in Israel.

How is that a reason to vote for bush? You realise it was under his watch that this tragedy was allowed to happen? And since then 2 countries have been invaded, their oil interests seized and the actual people who committed 9/11 have been let off the hook.

Bush had no way of knowing it was going to happen, he just received some information that they were planning on something. This was the same thing they have been receiving constantly for 10 years. He had no way in knowing that they would actually strike this time, or in what manner they would strike.

Oil interests seized? The respective countries have kept their oil. We have not had a drop of it. Our oil prices have skyrocketted since then. Quite simply, America had nothing to gain but a lot to lose in going in to either country.

The terrorists have been let off the hook? It's not like Bush let him go, he Bin Laden just did a good job of hiding. The search was not completely in vain as they got several of the top terrorists in the past 10 years who were working with Osama.

I assume you refer to iraq? That had no biological weapons, or in fact, banned weapons or any kind.

No biological weapons? No banned weapons of any kind? I have actually seen pictures of a medium range balistic missile that could carry chemical agents and was illegal for Iraq to posess. This is just one example of many. In addition to this, they have found quite a few chemical artillery canisters with chemical agents inside them. I could come up with some more should anyone want me to. Don't forget, Iraq had nearly 13 years to hide all of their illegal weapons. When the UN investigators came in, they were closely monitored and were not allowed to go to certain places. That would be like some officers came to your door with a search warrent and you took them around the house and said, "look, nothing bad in the refrigerator, nothing under this rug, hey you! don't go in the garage!"

Actually all governments involved used this as the only reason for going to war. The other reasons you and the rest of the ignorant have been feed were made up afterwards. To put this straight, regime change as a reason for war is one of the most illegal things that is possible, so was never used as a reason to justify war until after the fact.

Actually, Bush had every legal right to go into Iraq because of the treaty violations even if there were no WMDs.

Personally I'm shocked that the polls are so close. America under bush is a horrible country. Its uses freedom as a reason for genocide and invasion... it uses self defence as a reason for tyranny. Bush led USA resembles nazi germany more than the country it used to be under good leaders like clinton... and it saddens me that the nations tendancy toward blind national pride has blinded so many people to it. For gods sake, under the bush administration america even set up concentration camps (outside of their own borders so they could avoid abiding by their own law).

Wow, I don't know what to say to those remarks as they don't really give any premises to support them. I would like to find one example of genocide that Bush has committed (btw, he did stop the genocide that Sadam was committing against the Kurds in northern Iraq). I would also like to know of any 'concentration camps' that America has set up. If you are referring to the prision camps in Cuba (or where ever that was), I would suggest taking a look at the concentration camps in the Asian communist countries and the German camps in WWII and compare them. There were a few documented abuses in the American ones, but the offenders have been courtmartialed since then.

You also make it sound as if the United States was simply looking for a reason to invade other countries. I have said it previously but I will say it again, America had plenty to lose with little to gain for attacking those countries except for the removal of terrorists. We have spent a lot on the war and on rebuilding the countries and have not used the oil to compensate for the cost of war (even though they could very well do it). As far as tyranny goes, why did Bush set up the first free elections in afgahnistan and Iraq? Tyranny does not immediately pay to rebuild a country and give them their own government.

Good leaders like Clinton? He was treatening to attack Iraq for nearly his whole time as president so he had nearly the same stance as Bush (he also launched several strikes and raids in Iraq). Clinton however, sold our multiople nuclear warhead to China for illegal campaign contributions. This is not a rumor, but was actually proven. Unfortunately as is the case in organized crime, only the lower people were able to be punished while the main guy is just an inch of way from the law even though it is known that he was behind it.

I'm sure I'll get plenty of flames and counter arguments from people who are fed their opinions by government news agencies... but just this once, look around and try to think for yourself. It shocks me that so many people support an evil, illiterate warmonging hitler like bush.

Just for clarification, I am not trying to attack you in any way. With the way the media selectively presents information, it is easy to be strongly persuaded of any view. BTW, if anything, the media in this country is extremely biased against Bush. Anything you simply hear on the news is likely to be given from an anti-Bush standpoint.

I am always up for a good debate as long as it doesn't turn into an argument :p . If you want to, please respond to each area of my post with specific information and maybe even some sources for some of the more extreme claims.

As is my motto for debating, "I seek only to determine the truth. If I am wrong, let me be persuaded by rational argument. If I am right, let me persuade by rational argument." Let's debate!

=Profcorron=

30-10-2004, 22:49

Quite simply, America had nothing to gain but a lot to lose in going in to either country.

Um then why did they do it. and don't tell me becuase of "freedom and liberation for others" becuase the UN would have done that not the usa.

And if its to stop the TEroest Threat. It hasn't its just made it worse.

Jedistrike

31-10-2004, 00:09

u know what .. .... fu ck them all and the u.s. rocks .. besides its damn politics

Jedistrike

31-10-2004, 00:15

I would like to add....
*Russia has almost twice the number of judges and magistrates as compared to US, but US has 8 times more crimes committed than Russia.
* 40,000,000 people insure themselves against Alien Invasion In the U.S.
*Each square kilometer of land across the east coast holds on average enough metric tons of bodily fat to make a 5m layer of lard covering all the U.K.
*Even "Top" U.S goverment officials have denied that saddam and Al-Qaeda are linked.
* The War on Iraq was proclaimed Illegal, by the U.N.
* The war on iraq was codenamed Operation Iraqi Liberation (O.I.L,) but it was changed at the last minute to Operation Iraqi Freedom. Can You Guess Why?
*Almost all world threats have been in a war with the U.S.
* U.S. Like to thing they won both world wars on their own. (Liek to point out the Triple Entente's Third Allie, Russia, was no good what so ever, under the Tsar They were defeated within one year and the communist rebelled in 1917.)

P.S. "Don't blame the U.S for Hiroshima, they needed to see if it worked...."

omfg i cannot believe what i just read ... and wit the judge thing ... its beacase russias govt cant controle itself .. much less its people .. thats why they need the judges and **** .. and the low crime rate is cuz the can do **** without getting caught, note i gut nothing agenst u .. just every single word u just sed ..o and ps .. we didnt win eithor war by ourselves .. and we all know it .. im glad u do 2

=DavikKang=

31-10-2004, 01:43

Come on, keep it civil here.

Anyway, the wars in Iraq have not made the terrorist threat greater. I think that the main reason the United States has not been attacked since 9-11 is that because Bush has made such and effort to destroy the terrorist infrastructure. Of course in doing so, many more people hate the US, but the terrorists have lost much of their funding (from Iraq) and their bases of opperation.

Hehe, I am probably getting in over my head in this thread since most of the members are from countries that don't like the US. Oh well, maybe I can help show the other side of the argument.

=Profcorron=

31-10-2004, 03:02

While the hi-tec stuff is gone. The recrutes and basic militia weapons have gone up. So while the Tereriest won't be able to do another 9/11 they will do lots more bali bombs, and car bombs and such. Things that need little hi-tec gear but people.

Unfortunatly Australia is now a target becuase we attacked the terrerists before we weren't threatend.

And even more unfortunatly Bush has painted himself into a corner.

"To leave Iraq would be Political Suiside. But by waiting he's killing others" MY big quote.

ACiDuS

31-10-2004, 04:53

Frankly, the media has been kind to him in a lot of ways. Especially during the iraq war (which is no surprise since all the reporters were squad inserted, and told what to say by their military escorts).

I am not sure about the Bin Laden part, but I know that Iraq supported all forms of terrorism. Just one of which is to pay $30,000 to the family of any suicide bomber in Israel.

Heh, dont get me started on israel. The support bush shows to them is disgusting quite frankly. If america had any real morals they would have stopped isael murdering the palestines a long time ago. Likewise if a country who werent americas best buddies acted as israel did, the worldwide community would come together to stop it.

Oil interests seized? The respective countries have kept their oil. We have not had a drop of it. Our oil prices have skyrocketted since then. Quite simply, America had nothing to gain but a lot to lose in going in to either country.

Actually, prior to invading iraq americas oil needs were not being met by the worlds exports, within a few years they were due to run out. The deficit was around 20 million barrels, which iraq could supply. However, iraqs oil exports were severly limited by un sanctions, until the invasion, that is ;)

The terrorists have been let off the hook? It's not like Bush let him go, he Bin Laden just did a good job of hiding. The search was not completely in vain as they got several of the top terrorists in the past 10 years who were working with Osama.

Actually, when forces had him cornered in the mountaints, rather than send troops bush opted to hire local warlords as mercenaries. Surprise surprise they let him go. Frankly, stupidity is no excuse.

have found quite a few chemical artillery canisters with chemical agents inside them

I know for a fact that is untrue. A recent official report has stated that iraq has and had no banned weapons of any kind. The report also stated that it was likely that all such weapons were destroyed at the end of the previous war.

During the invasion there were numerous reports of weapons found, which were later identified as lies or mistakes. Its called propoganda.

Actually, Bush had every legal right to go into Iraq because of the treaty violations even if there were no WMDs.

Again, untrue. Regime change is illegal and that is that. Various british politicians even resigned over our support of the action because it was and is completely and totally illegal under international law.

The fact that no consequence has come of it makes a real mockery of international law.... just another thing that bush has devalued, like the UN and the geneva convention.

would like to find one example of genocide that Bush has committed (btw, he did stop the genocide that Sadam was committing against the Kurds in northern Iraq).

That was the other bush :P

I would also like to know of any 'concentration camps' that America has set up

x-ray, delta. These camps were set up outside of usa borders to avoid usa law. They violate the geneva convention, human rights, international law on a daily basis. Daily torture, horrific conditions, life imprisonment without fair trial. Let freedom reign eh.

For the record, if you disagree on this point at all, you really need to look up what a concentration camp is, because these camps are exactly that.

Good leaders like Clinton?

He didnt invade countries on a yearly basis.
He didnt throw away the anti-nuclear proliferation treaty.
He didnt break the geneva convention
He introduced forest preservation laws that bush reversed (bush, it seems hates the environment and wants it to die asap)
He didnt devalue the un and international law.
He could read.

As far as tyranny goes, why did Bush set up the first free elections in afgahnistan and Iraq?

He hasnt yet. The current president of iraq has no real power and was appointed by the usa themselves. Even the elected government will have no control over the operations of the usa army within their borders and the usa have said that they will retain a veto over all operations for the forseeable future. What this means is, even when a real government is established for the country, the usa military can and will do whatever they want.

If bush continues to lead america, the world will be a dangerous place for the next few years. Frankly if the american voters are stupid enough to vote him in, then they deserve any craphole he leads them into. I just hope the world can afford going into hell alongside him.. because in just one term he has managed to make the globe a seriously messed up place.

Tenken

31-10-2004, 06:24

clitnon a good pres? bah he might not have done anything as noticable as bush bad he never did much good and he lied flat out LIED in a court of law under outh how can you respect someone like that?
in any case the globe has been a craphole for since before bush was elected its just that before that no one paid attention because there were no world super powers involved it was mostly smaller less advanced countries but there were wars there was genocide there was all kinds of terrible things bush made an attempt to right at least some wrongs in the world people just fail to see that he did what he thought was right
lets keep in mind tho "right" and "wrong" are just words reality is perception something is only right or wrong in your mind there really is no wrong or no right in the end
oh and whats with the crack about america being fat? ok we all know its true you dont need to state it its just uncalled for and rude plz keep remarks to the topic people being over weight has nothing to do with the current state of the contry/world

=Profcorron=

31-10-2004, 07:16

The thing about perspectave is that one says white the other says black and neather will change. ITs best to ausume that gray is infact the truth it may be slopy but its realOk u heard how bust didn't do anything for during the 2 towers assult till 15mins after the second one was smashed. other the reading to children?

It doesn't matter what your intentions are but its what you do that counts.
Why is it ileagle for Iraq to possess WMDs but not for the USA.

The USA is the only country EVER to use a Nuke in warfair. Is that the real reason why thier allowed WMDs becuase no one else can stand up to some1 who will actually use the weapon?

Chairwalker

31-10-2004, 07:22

Typotown, population: Everyone.

|_maPex_|

31-10-2004, 07:58

I was going to post my own beliefs here but here's the reason I won't:

1) I hate being flamed by immature kids who don't know better
2) I hate politics
3) I can't even vote this year because FFS I am going to be 18 the day AFTER election day!

Both candidates imo are retarded - I can't believe Bush beat McCaine and I can't believe Kerry is the democratic candidate. However, the fact remains that they are our two choices (if Nadar gets 5% of the vote then a 3rd party may come into play starting 4 years from now...4 years ago he got 3.5% or something). One of these guys is going to do something I want to have done by the end of the next four years and I hope he wins. When he does do this task and end his term I hope to never see his face on TV or in the newspaper ever again.

Pilo T

31-10-2004, 08:03

I was going to post my own beliefs here but here's the reason I won't:

1) I hate being flamed by immature kids who don't know better
2) I hate politics

Same here :cool:

^RaPToR

31-10-2004, 08:39

Those were some interesting facts I found, I particully like the alien and extra bodily fat ones.

I know what I forgot to say....
If America always wanted to Liberate Iraq, Why the hell didn't they overthrow Saddam Hussein in 1991?

P.s. Why are you voting for someone who said
"They Misundererestimated Me!"
and....
"More and More Of Our Imports Are Coming From Abroad!"

P.P.S"No You Crazy Dutch Bastard!"

^RaPToR

31-10-2004, 08:53

=tom=

31-10-2004, 13:16

cant resist.....

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. ~George Carlin

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.
~ Bishop Desmond Tutu

:p

TehJumpingJawa

31-10-2004, 14:53

i think its 3 trillion there stonewall ;) but thats besides the point the government is usually always in debt and wars usually help bring us out ever hear of the great depression? of corse ya have! guess how we got out of that... WWI thats right WWI if it wasnt for that we might STILL be in the great depression.. ok well thats pretty unlikely but im sure you understand what im saying but thanks for ur input i hadnt ever heard anyone say anything about the deficet for the election before

Wars are a major *cause* of economic depression, they don't remedy it.

^RaPToR

31-10-2004, 15:42

Wars with smaller weaker countries is extreamly profitable, thats why in before world war II japan invaded manchuria and italy invaded abyssinia. Until a certain point in history the spoils of war were endless, bringing about the empires of Britain, France and Germany.
BUT war with nations of simialr military background and economic strength was most coastly especially in world war I, where each nation, excluding russia, had very powerful defensive weapons and almost no mean of attack (until the tank was invented, by Britain.) And since generals were so stupid and used to the older ways of winning war, many men lost the lives just trying to capture a few metres of land.

And by world war II more deadly weapons were in sue like planes, and even missles, and the atom bombs. So since then it has been far to risky to fight in wars becuase the loss of life that can be caused by a press of a button is so high.

The depression was solved japan by taking the weak manchuria from a squabling china and in italy it was helped greatly when abyssinia was invaded by th world power of italy, greatly increasing its empire size.
Adolf hitler tore apart the treaty of versailles, slowly and was able to peacefully take more land back. The U.S.S.R didn't trade that much with the U.S any way so it didn't affect them so much and they weren't a league of nations member. Britain till had is Empire to trade with so that helped to make up from losing the U.S as a trade partner.

The league of nations failed to stop italy and japan!!

So All in all...
*Japan was able to come out of depression very fast as they invaded manchuria.
*The U.S dropped to such a level it was becoming one of the poorer super nations.
*Britain suffered a minor drop in comparision to the others followed by a a gradual and very slow increase in wealth asthey recover.
*Germany was able to grow until was about as wealthy as Britain, under Nazi rule who were able to destroy the treaty of versailles.
*France suffered a quick fall, but caught up about 5 years later, equalling it wealth with Britain.
*italy suffered a a similar decline and rise to france, but abbysinia's oil reserves quickly help they becoem mighty.

not the best explanation ever and not all reasons are covered but hell, its not my job to try and clear thing up.

Mazoon

31-10-2004, 18:27

Why to compare Hitler and Bush?

Well... Patriotic act.

Do you even know what it really is?
It is a law that removes privacy of every USAn person, in short.
It allows goverment to spy your every move, such as: The tickets you have bought, books you have loaned from library, who have you paid with your credit card... And so.

And the Iraqian civil casualties... USA was using smart-guided missiles, firing only military targets. Still, civil casualties are not 0. But at least the people are thankful:
"Hoorray, that is an USAn missile coming to free us. Looks like it is coming this way. Oh, it is!"
*Kaboom!*
"I lost my arms and my mother, father, 3 brothers and 2 sisters died... BUT AT LEAST IM FREE! Hoorray!"

But Bush will win anyway... Last time, Gore had more votes, but Bush won.
Wicked somehow?

[KP] Tokakeke

31-10-2004, 18:36

As much as I hate to say it, Raptor' right. WWII did help America's economy. An interesting tidbit kind of related: Romania was producing oil for Germany. This oil was regarded as "bad" oil. It was sold to the U.S. cheap. The U.S. experimented with additives, and kept adding additives until the "cheap" oil became extremely powerful. This is why US airplanes were so much more speedy :)

[KP] Tokakeke

31-10-2004, 18:38

But Bush will win anyway... Last time, Gore had more votes, but Bush won.
Wicked somehow?

Bumper sticker I saw:

"The election's not over until your brother counts the votes."

Tenken

31-10-2004, 20:33

raptor in what you said in regards to religion
1. it hasnt become out dated due to science and never will or can unless science can magically see all which it cant thats what religion is for its faith for what we dont and will never know
2.not all religion is hostile look at budhism although admitadly yes some of the greatest travesties in history have been in the name of God the cure is not to wipe out relgion but to seperate church and state
3.prepare for a smiting :p

Chroniktoke

31-10-2004, 20:57

I like bush, and guess what :)

I BET HE WINS SO SCREW YOU JOHN KERRY DEMOCRATIC JUDGING PEICES OF TRASH :)

jus kiddin ,hehehe

^RaPToR

31-10-2004, 22:02

2.not all religion is hostile look at budhism although admitadly yes some of the greatest travesties in history have been in the name of God the cure is not to wipe out relgion but to seperate church and state
3. prepare for a smitin :p

1. y don't i egt smited long time ago, i been sayn this sicne i was 10.
2. I separatign church and state doesn't solve anything, ever heard of israeli and palestinian suicide bombers recently, and thats only one example of mad preachers...

Tenken

31-10-2004, 22:15

ok raptor dont take it so personal i was joking man jeez and its not the gov'ts fault that there are so many radicals

^RaPToR

31-10-2004, 22:19

so separating churc hand state is almost useless like i said.

and when i said that science was displacing religion it was because theorys are launched to explain existance, that often collide against religion

Tenken

31-10-2004, 23:01

and when i said that science was displacing religion it was because theorys are launched to explain existance, that often collide against religion
ah yes THEORYS lets keep in mind thats on paper on paper communism works but it could never work in the real world and half the time when people try to disprove the existance of God they end up proving it more or if you prefer making it more plausible that God indeed exists
and if youve ever read Angels and Demons youd know weve gotten as far to the begining of time as Time Zero but the force that caused everything to come into existance still hasnt been explained or found and yes im aware the davinchi codes are sci-fi but there are quite a few facts in there that are infact true that being one of them
also if you could know the meaning of life and whats after death would you really want to know? i know i wouldnt like they say "ignorance is bliss" its beter to have faith in something then knowing the facts in some cases thats one in my mind

Mazoon

31-10-2004, 23:05

U insulting communism?
Who says it doesn´t work?
Works better than capitalism, at least.

Tenken

31-10-2004, 23:07

mazoon it would work if people would let it but lets face it there no way people would and it cant be forced every instance of communism so far has had a dictatorship in reality and communism is the exact opposite of that according to communism there sould be no government

=DavikKang=

01-11-2004, 00:08

I would like to add for N0 Particular Reason that I agree with Communism on at least one level...

I beleive religion is evil, it has brought nothing, but hate and prejudism.
Instead of Helping to make the world a better, safer,and more understanding place, it has brought death, or fueled it.
* Genocide, The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Holocaust, The Palestinian Crisis, Racial and Religious Crimes Globally.
*What ever good people think they can do by spreading their beliefs, twice as much evil is created by those beliefs.

*Religion has become outdated, due to Scientific Knoledge and Understanding.
*Although it could bring out the good sides, it also brings out more of the bad.
*Humans have not evoled to be artificially good and friendly, we have become competative like every other species, we fight for land, domanance, mates and food.

So Its' up to you to decide for yourselfs but I believe its some thing that need thought.

(This is MY Personal Veiws, So don't go all preachy on my arse.)

Well, I don't want to turn this into a religion thread, but I think that these points need to be answered. I have also seen several other comments in other threads making comments against religion so I think the other side must be represented as well if this is going to go on.

First off, by saying that religion is evil and has brought about nothing, you have just the informal fallacy of a sweeping generalization. Therefore, your conclusion is not valid (valid = logically supported in statement, true = actually is in real life).

Second, to say that religion is evil is a philosophical fallacy. For a moral standard to exist by which you can call things good or evil, there must be a supreme moral law giver (God). If there is no God, then good and evil is simply something determined by each individual. Good and evil simply becomes an opinion and it is therefore futile to condenm anything as evil. Hitler, Staling, every leader you think was evil, are then not evil. They just don't live up to the moral standard that you think that the world should adopt. Also, to say that society as a whole determines morals is another fallacy because what is good and evil does not change with people's opinions. Most of Germany supported Nazism in WWII, but does that make it right?

Third, religion has brought some hate and prejudism, but it has also brought much love that would not exist otherwise. There have been many humanitarian aid that have been brought about by religion. Marriages have been restored, families brought back together through religion, and the needy have been cared for. One simply cannot deny that religion has helped mankind greatly. The hate and prejudism comes from only two things, religions which teach that way and from those who misapply their faith.

Fourth, the world will never become "a better, safer, and more understanding place" apart from divine intervention. If one studies history, he will discover that mankind is basically evil and that the world is progressively becoming more and more wicked. This applies to religious wars as well as atheistic movements. Don't be decieved, if you remove religion, man will simply find other excuses to act out of hatred. Racism is a good example, it makes no sense, but people use it as an outlet for unfounded hate that is in them naturally. This is not to say that everyone is exceedingly hateful of course.

Fifth, you mention the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Holocaust. It must be noted that the Crusades were actually purely political in nature and that Christianity was used as a tool to get people to join their armies. The Crusades actually started out because Constantinople was under attack from the Seljuck Turks and called upon it's European allies for help. Many soldiers also used the Crusade as an excuse to murder and to steal, but had absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible taught.
The Inquisition was a horrible time for Christianity. However, you must look at the medieval papacy as more of a political power than a religious movement. The popes kept the Bible out of the hands of the common people, then proceeded to violate nearly everything that it taught while telling the people that it was the will of God.
The Holocaust was actually a secular humanistic movement (see below).

Sixth, Atheism has actually killed more people in the past century than all the religious wars of all time. When you add up the deaths that came from Nazism and Communism (both secular humanistic philosophies), they greatly exceed all the deaths caused by religion and possibly even all wars previously (due to the population growth, I can come up with the exact numbers should anyone ask me). Stalin alone killed more people than all that died in WWII and the amount of people who have died in Asia under communism is simply staggaring.

Seventh, you said that, "Religion is becoming outdated due to scientific knowedge and understanding." By scintific knowedge, are you referring to the modern adaption of 7th century Greek mythology (evolution, research it here http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0742_Philosophical_origin.html) I'm not even going to go into the philosophical and scientific impossibility of evolution. That would take an entire forum to debate properly. Also, modern discoveries have given much credence to a creation account.

P.S. Don't judge a religion by the actions of its followers, they don't always apply what they teach. Look at the author of a religion and judge it on that.

Now I don't think that the admins want religion to be discussed here so let's stay on topic. If you want to discuss religion in detail, I would suggest oppening another thread (with permission from the forum) or sending me a PM.

In case you didn't figure it out from my dissertation, I am a Christian. I cannot answer for other religions that much, but I have seen posts about 'there is no such thing as rational religion' and I would like to show otherwise.

Should anyone be interested in going into an indept discussion on the validity of Christianity, send me a PM with your questions.

[KP] Tokakeke

01-11-2004, 01:38

Communism takes into account the fact that everyone is "good". Unfortunately, they are not.

As far as religion goes, I do believe in evolution.

I do believe that religion HAS brought about a greater evil than good.

I believe that Bush's Iraq war is equivalent to the Crusades' "holy war" viewpoint, where one side is sanctioned by God to kill the evildoers.

One point I think Davik made sort-of effectively is that without religion, people don't have much of a moral compass. I think that while religion does help people find their own moral viewpoint, religion can be interpreted in many different ways. All world religions have been interpreted in a way that encourages hate.

Overall, we have a difference of opinion, but that's OK.

[KP] Tokakeke

01-11-2004, 01:42

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 01:56

Getting back on topic, to be honest what was wrong with Clinton?? sure he lied in a court of law ok so what, did anyone die? no

i am not american i am british but before you ignore my view just take a little read. when clinton was in power was there any deaths? any wars? no and no. so when Bush came into power, i didnt like this guy from the start, and i actually said to my family i bet this guy starts a war well before 9/11 even started, now granted terrorist did start it with 9/11 but this whole war on iraq? now what has that to do with 9/11? Now sorry if offend anyone but 9/11 was a excuse to mask the real reason why they wanted to invade iraq and also WMD, was for OIL, its a simple fact and no matter how much bull **** they feed us that i will stand by.

to be honest i hate my country for going along with america and turning its back on the UN, which i thought was a bad idea. most americans call america a great country, but lets imagine a world with only america... if there is only the US then they would be nothing, lets face it america need the world as much as the world needs the US, so that is no grounds to call the US the greatest nation, it is by no means the greatest it is just about as great as all other nations.

Again i dont want to offend anyone but what america tasted in 9/11 is by no means as bad as what other countrys have had to put up with, britian put up with almost daily Bomb attacks from the IRA that killed thousands of people over a longer period of time, its that it was brought home to americans who have confortable sat in safety in thier country while wars was going on the cold and bitter truth of war and attacks to thier very heart which to be honest i thought scared them, since it had not been done before and got an unqulified leader to act, afganistan ok i could understand them attacking, but iraq? oh come on whats next? the next nation that defies the "great US". they have to learn that they are not the police of this world and the more and more they try to shape the rest of the world in thier image the more and more people are going to hate them,

i say get a leader in thats will put an end to this senceless war. Pull your guys and ours out of iraq and have them all home for christmas with thier familys and make sure saddam is locked up for a very long time, and try to bring the world back to some peace and order like in the good old days.

Tenken

01-11-2004, 02:18

while i might not totally agree with the war senseless? oh no virus not senseless no war is senseless look at history has any war been senseless? there is always a reason some arent as valid as others but then again what one person sees as valid another may not and you said it yourself the war was for oil... or maybe it wasnt i think thats still up for debate you know if we needed oil so badly we have a surplus in alaska we could use any time we wouldnt need to go to war for it and im sure if that was the case then bush wouldve been impeached
and after all this hard work in iraq pull out our troops? well i dont blame you for wanting too i do too but if we pull out now someone will just come to power likely more terrible them saddam in iraq they dont have the means to defend thier own government from relgious radicals and terrorists yet.. YET im sure once they do we'll pull out but untill then we should see to it that they get a government in place... now i dont know if introducing democracy is the right corse of action lord knows its not as great a system as so many make it out to be but we at least need someone in control of iraq who isnt a religous fanatic or warlord

=DavikKang=

01-11-2004, 02:21

One thing I cannot fail to bring up is that Davik does have a bit of a fallacy here in the syllogism

Naziism (spelling) and Communism were secular humanist philosophies

Naziism and Communism have caused great deaths.

_______________________________________________

Therefore, secular humanism causes more deaths than not.

This syllogism isn't valid.

Bah! I seemed to misplace my critical thinking book, what error did I make in my syllogism? Can you tell me which one it is? It seems valid to me but I forgot the formal fallacies.

BTW, rofl @ tenken's signature.

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 02:23

well i dont blame you for wanting too i do too but if we pull out now someone will just come to power likely more terrible them saddam in iraq they dont have the means to defend thier own government from relgious radicals and terrorists yet.. YET im sure once they do we'll pull out but untill then we should see to it that they get a government in place

Our boys brittish, american, and all other countries already in iraq are not prepared for bomber, radicals etc, but they only seem mostly to be interested in our presence and why the attacks continue, we went in "So we all say" to "liberate iraq from this oppressive regime" havent we done that already? so why are we still there?

Tenken

01-11-2004, 02:25

like i just got done sayin so a new opressive reigm doesnt take power because if one comes along it will pry be worse and be more anti-american

=DavikKang=

01-11-2004, 02:28

Our boys brittish, american, and all other countries already in iraq are not prepared for bomber, radicals etc, but they only seem mostly to be interested in our presence and why the attacks continue, we went in "So we all say" to "liberate iraq from this oppressive regime" havent we done that already? so why are we still there?

I think the reason is that if we pull out now, all the little warring factions will fight each other for dominance and a civil war may ensue. It is a very unstable country right now politically. While it would be in America's best interest to pull out now, it would ruin Iraq.

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 02:29

like i just got done sayin so a new opressive reigm doesnt take power because if one comes along it will pry be worse and be more anti-american

but cant we have faith that they will be able to sort thier OWN country themselves? which im sure they can, saying another oppressive regime will come in will not happen as long as we are around the UN to stop a repeat war in iraq, all im saying is pull our boys out this war has lasted long enough, but i personally think there is another agend why they still remain. the only reason for these repeated hostilities in iraq is becoause of the US presence. this is thier country we helped them get rid of a terrible leader that was killing his own people, now let them rebuild a new life for them and not stay there turning it into another US state. pull out when a new government is in place fine, but we cant stay thier for to long we have suffered enough deaths in this war already.

Tenken

01-11-2004, 02:34

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 02:44

yes i agree virus but anything worth doing is worth doing right and like davik stated there could be a civil war due to all the warring factions and after that the person in power would most likely be the most ruthless cunning soulless son of a b*tch imaginable

i only hope that all these deaths in this war was really and truly worth it.

but back on topic been a none US citizen i say get kerry in and get bush out to be honest any person is better than bush to be honest, in our forth coming elections im gonna vote out the US lap dog Blair and get some better party in (i wont go in to british politics since they differ quite a bit from US ones)

Pilo T

01-11-2004, 04:23

Our boys brittish, american, and all other countries already in iraq are not prepared for bomber, radicals etc, but they only seem mostly to be interested in our presence and why the attacks continue, we went in "So we all say" to "liberate iraq from this oppressive regime" havent we done that already? so why are we still there?
I really don't want to get involved in this thread, but I don't think it's good to eliminate a country's government and then just leave them on their own.

ACiDuS

01-11-2004, 06:04

Then I would suggest not eliminating governments in the first place.

Theres a reason why its a war crime, ya know.

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 11:25

I really don't want to get involved in this thread, but I don't think it's good to eliminate a country's government and then just leave them on their own.

who said we would leave them on our own am just think about al those troops over brittish or american that have been promised they would be home for christmas (saw it in the news) and is not going to happen. am not saying leave them in the lurch, make sure they are stable and when they are get the hell out simple.

Then I would suggest not eliminating governments in the first place.

Theres a reason why its a war crime, ya know.

exactly and the US acting in this war (even Brittain) against the UN's wishes now isnt that a crime we have all commited in this war?

ACiDuS

01-11-2004, 14:46

exactly and the US acting in this war (even Brittain) against the UN's wishes now isnt that a crime we have all commited in this war?

Yup. I too am british, and am ashamed of the way our government has acted.

Like america we face a decision in our future also.

Like america we are going to be choosing between a weak leader in the conservatives, or a scumbag leader in labour.

Kerry may not be a strong and great leader, but he is no doubt better than bush.

And just the same, anyone would be better than blair.

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 16:11

kerry might not be a weak leader... militarywise probably is a weak leader, but nobody wants a general to rule now do they, the war is over get a real polititan in.

Dill Pickle

01-11-2004, 16:50

Chroniktoke

01-11-2004, 18:30

our goverment works like this and if you live here you should already know. and the only people who disagree to this are republicans because they never fess up to it.

democrats - are better at helping the economy for the lower and middle class (aka 80% of America)

republicans - only looking out for themselves and the fellow "rich douche business owner" part of society

now that thats said
Bush=had promise after 9/11 he did the right thing then going into Afghanistan and bombing the bejesus out of it, but then he starts talking about Iraq and says screw you UN me and Tony are agreeing and our countries are better then yours so eat me. and now 100's of our men are dead, people here are losing jobs like mad(my uncle lost his job due to gov taking it over), big business is booming because of costs cut by overseas workers(just call Dell tech service youll see), medications costs are almost impossible to middle and lower class people(case in point my grandma's pills cost 300$ a month and medicare, covers NOTHING, they give her 600 dollars a year thats 2 months o joy), and worst of all we are at war with terror in the wrong damn country because bush had to finish his daddy's little grudge. North Korea and Iran have nukes and we go into a sand hole to fight jawa's with rpgs and ak's thats it. and he says mission acomplished and he chuckles like he did the right thing. my ass saw on the news last week 50 of our soliders got ambushed in Iraq. **** bush. vote kerry because anyone is better then bush accept for nader.

and PETA YOU GET OUT... BAD PETA :sprays with water: Giant Douche 2004!

-edit-
and why do you republicans support that douche after all he did!? you were ready to hang Clinton after he got that bj, and this ******* sent us to a non needed war.... friggin hippocrits

if only what u have typed here were true about republicans..............HEY pal dont tread on me , this is a thread for WHO WILL YOU VOTE FOR , not a dissing of republicans or democrats

we are talking about kerry and bush, pal.

And for the record, Democrats beleive in difference by color, and that if you are a black person , that has no education ( which was your OWn doing) then u should collect a huge welfare check.

Republican believe in the current American way, you have a chance to be rich or whatever you wanna be ,even if you are raised a peasant you NEED to get that SIMPLE FREE EDUCATION, NOT BE SOME SLOB THAT COLLECTS FREE CHECKS ,AND A BUNCH OF SUCKING UP TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY BECAUSE THEY ARE A LARGE POPULATION NOW. (as with many other races besides the whites.)

El Vi-Riachi

01-11-2004, 18:40

if only what u have typed here were true about republicans..............HEY pal dont tread on me , this is a thread for WHO WILL YOU VOTE FOR , not a dissing of republicans or democrats

we are talking about kerry and bush, pal.

And for the record, Democrats beleive in difference by color, and that if you are a black person , that has no education ( which was your OWn doing) then u should collect a huge welfare check.

Republican believe in the current American way, you have a chance to be rich or whatever you wanna be ,even if you are raised a peasant you NEED to get that SIMPLE FREE EDUCATION, NOT BE SOME SLOB THAT COLLECTS FREE CHECKS ,AND A BUNCH OF SUCKING UP TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY BECAUSE THEY ARE A LARGE POPULATION NOW. (as with many other races besides the whites.)

if you said this is a thread about bush and kerry then why bring race into this topic, just a little OT if you ask me.

[KP] Tokakeke

01-11-2004, 19:02

Bah! I seemed to misplace my critical thinking book, what error did I make in my syllogism? Can you tell me which one it is? It seems valid to me but I forgot the formal fallacies.

BTW, rofl @ tenken's signature.

Can't find mine at the moment, isn't it the fallacy of the something middle? I must find my book! Yes, my precious book.. Heheh.

Dill Pickle

01-11-2004, 19:35

And for the record, Democrats beleive in difference by color, and that if you are a black person , that has no education ( which was your OWn doing) then u should collect a huge welfare check.

ok so your saying democrates are playing on the black vote? damn straight because half of the middle and lower class is african american and nobody acknowledges it in the republican party so someone has to. and i went to school all my life and trust me i lived in a tralier for half my life i have lived in the ghetto and believe me pal its not as easy to get out as you think. education doesnt do jack crap when there are no jobs and still racial barriers that need broken down before they can get just as fair jobs as whites. and kerry even talked about that and he even stated his belief on wemon's rights of equal pay as men. so you tell me where is bush trying to help middle and lower class Americans? and your damn straight they desierve a wellfare check and believe me its not something they can live on. unless you have been dirt poor chronic i dont want to hear it because like i said most republicans (not the politions i mean the avrage joe republican) are rich and could care less about taxes or jobs because they are well set in income. and only a republican would say poors dont desierve a welfare check.... thats sick man honestly they are barley making it and thats only thing keeping them from starving or living in the street and you think its "their OWN fault" im sure they chose to live in poverty.

=DavikKang=

01-11-2004, 22:04

Can't find mine at the moment, isn't it the fallacy of the something middle? I must find my book! Yes, my precious book.. Heheh.

It's not the fallacy of the excluded middle if that is what you mean. I broke down my syllogism to make it a little easier.

distributed------------------------undistributed
(all Naziism and Communism) are (secular humanists)

undistributed-----------------------undistributed
(some Naziism and Communism) are (greater death causers)
________________________________________________
Therefore:

undistributed---------------------undistributed
(Some secular humanists) are (greater death causers)

As you can see, the middle term (naziism and communism) is distributed so I didn't violate that rule.
;)

Chroniktoke

01-11-2004, 22:17

ok so your saying democrates are playing on the black vote? damn straight because half of the middle and lower class is african american and nobody acknowledges it in the republican party so someone has to. and i went to school all my life and trust me i lived in a tralier for half my life i have lived in the ghetto and believe me pal its not as easy to get out as you think. education doesnt do jack crap when there are no jobs and still racial barriers that need broken down before they can get just as fair jobs as whites. and kerry even talked about that and he even stated his belief on wemon's rights of equal pay as men. so you tell me where is bush trying to help middle and lower class Americans? and your damn straight they desierve a wellfare check and believe me its not something they can live on. unless you have been dirt poor chronic i dont want to hear it because like i said most republicans (not the politions i mean the avrage joe republican) are rich and could care less about taxes or jobs because they are well set in income. and only a republican would say poors dont desierve a welfare check.... thats sick man honestly they are barley making it and thats only thing keeping them from starving or living in the street and you think its "their OWN fault" im sure they chose to live in poverty.

Excuse me mr. i believe in highly increased taxes,

But this country is free to any color , size , shape , and gender.
As long as you go through simple school you can get a grand high-paying job.
Trust me , i know this , in this country nowadays unless you have rich parents or a lot of money saved up or and inheritance, you need to get that simple education .You can get a simple free scholarship by making average grades, and if u do your damnest a scholarship to a good college.

if all that fails , you better look towards a manual labor job like moving heavy furniture for $12 an hour , which is ****ty but i put up with it.

And about our soldiers dying, there is a thing called a draft ,buddy, that hasnt taken place yet and probably wont.This means you have to sign to joni the army , therefor u yourself are putting your life on the line for your country

and yes pal ive lived in memphis for 15 years of my life in a small project area, and your right its no fun.But my beleifs are true to my eye.Either way i love all of my fellow Americans all the same , and all humanity, no matter who leads this country.Growing up can be tough, or spoiled, but in the end its you who has the choice to make something out of yourself

and pickel is spelled pickle

Mazoon

01-11-2004, 22:33

He asked admins to change his name from Pickel to Pickle in his first post :p :p

^RaPToR

01-11-2004, 22:55

I do believe that religion HAS brought about a greater evil than good.

I love YOU for that 1 ty.

P.S I don't think communism was intended to be overlooked by some1 like Stalin. Karl Marx beleived peopel were wasting their lives working, and not caring about the way they were treated by higher members of society, because they believed the would go to a next life l8er on. He believed they were simply clinging on to the hope of a better future after death, and in the process wasting their life away for one large con.

P.S > Tenken! teh words crusade and jihad are themselves defined as being holy wars!
And I would add that genesis, in the bible has even got the order of evolution wrong, there is a huge difference in time from the first appearences of birds and reptiels, bird. ( reptiles being much older.) Genesis states that the birds were one of the first creatures.

Also the bible says that man was before woman, but in reality every man starts as a woman in the womb, very early on.

How does the bible forget creatures like dinosaurs... and raptors :P, who lived for over 160 million years.Some priests say that they died in the great flood, but the bible also says noah gathered 2 of EVERY ANIMAL!

few points

and im not communist!
I simply believe in combining the good points of communism with capitilism, a hard and near impossbile task now. But still....

=DavikKang=

01-11-2004, 22:57

democrats - are better at helping the economy for the lower and middle class (aka 80% of America)

republicans - only looking out for themselves and the fellow "rich douche business owner" part of society

Actually, it is not that Republican's don't care about the other classes and the economy, they just have a different philosophy on how to fix it. The fact is, the vast majority of Republicans are middle and lower class people. This is proven by the fact that the total number of wealthy Americans is no where near the number of registered Republicans.

^RaPToR

01-11-2004, 22:58

Naziism says davik many a time

it's called fascism, u clown :p

^RaPToR

01-11-2004, 23:09

You Never Know, One Day America's Leader Might Look Something, Like This......
Scary Right

Mazoon

01-11-2004, 23:15

Bah. This is an old picture from my vacation, many many years ago. A lot better.

And the other one is a poster of SW:EPII

^RaPToR

01-11-2004, 23:23

when clinton was in power was there any deaths? any wars? no and no.

Actually Blair and Clinton went to the balkans to over throw molosovich (don't know how to spell it, i was like 7)

=DavikKang=

02-11-2004, 00:30

says davik many a time

it's called fascism, u clown :p

Naziism is to fascism what communism is to marxism.

[KP] Tokakeke

02-11-2004, 00:39

Someone has this signature, I think. I think it's really relevant;

Republican Proverb:

Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day

Throw him into the fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

Sneaky

02-11-2004, 01:35

I think Kerry and Bush should be taken out into a field and lit on fire, and Clinton should come back into office.

Honestly, they're all politicians, and politicians are ... mean. Neither of them wouldn't have come this far if they didn't have the intelligence or the courage to manipulate, bribe, forge, etc... Therefore, I suggest you all vote NADER! Just to piss them off.

Chroniktoke

02-11-2004, 01:50

please beleive in me guys, it doesnt matter who our president is , this country is falling to ****,

im sorry to admti it to some , but the next generation will be more violent than i, and that is pretty violent.

the fights ive been in over little things are so irrational its soo sad , its as if democratic , republican , whatever , it doesnt matter we should all love each other till death guys

this planet is going to hell and belvieve it or not , GOD the holy spirit is watching us and judging us as we speak , please repent , we all die and thats the afterlife, and thats all that matters.

please every night before you go to school or college or work ,please tell your parents and your family u love them please , just a favor for me.

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 02:36

And about our soldiers dying, there is a thing called a draft ,buddy, that hasnt taken place yet and probably wont.This means you have to sign to joni the army , therefor u yourself are putting your life on the line for your country

Just because these people have volunteered to risk their lives for their country does not mean bush should throw away their lives on a whim, you imbecile.

Someone said earlier and its true. Clinton gets a bj from a sluttly assistant and the world goes nuts, bush invades countries, murders thousands, offends the entire world, encourages nuclear proliferation, destroys the environment and HIM people embrace. Its people like you chron that give america the bad image that it has across the world. There are many intelligent and straight thinking americans, even on this forum. But its your and your ilk that are the loudest and the most noticable tbh.

Chroniktoke

02-11-2004, 02:44

whom are you to say mr. im forced to be lead by some crippled queen who knows nothing..........

i just stated it doesnt mater .....we should love all humanity

i dont care if you coded, modeled, meneued, did whatever i dont care u dont spit on me like that

If only i could count how many of you guys id like to sparr with,but violence does not solve a thing , only peace does

OH IM A IMBECILE , YOU SHOUDL COMPARE YOUR MILITARY TOO OURS....

BRITISH MILITARY=DISCIPLINED UNABLED WRONG TAUNT SLOWS

AMERICAN = "imbeciles"(as acidus would call it) has overcomed the weakened british over centuries ago and now is teamed up , fact is the british arent to judge us because we kicked theire asses when we were outnumbered, outmilitaried, and outsmarted until the end

thats the past....i feel offended because a British called me an imbecile when he himself isnt an american

wut an imbecile himself AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you dont know the half because whom are you too judge to be a citizen and not a soldier

ONCE AGAIN I KNOW THE WHOLE WORLD WILL FALL APART BECAUSE OF RELIGION OR JUST HATE,

COMON LETS JUST LOVE EACH OTHER THERE IS ALREADY MANY RIOTS OVER ONE POLITICAL DEBATE FOR A PRESIDENT

CANT WE LOVE EACH OTHER?

PLEASE ANSWER ME .......PLEASE?

so before you call me a peice of **** , please dont spit on my country , when you havent even lived here your whole life.

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 03:10

AMERICAN = "imbeciles*

Incorrect. Its simply that imbeciles like yourself are so loud and outspoken, you get noticed more and give your country a bad reputation.

Your last post illustrates my point pretty conclusively. There are many level headed, intelligent americans contributing to this very thread, but if someone were to look at it, all they would remember is you acting like an idiot.

OH IM A IMBECILE , YOU SHOUDL COMPARE YOUR MILITARY TOO OURS....

Your military has never won a war without assistance. Whenever the US military has attempted sole action, it has consistently resulted in catastrophy, even when facing relatively primitive enemies.

=Profcorron=

02-11-2004, 03:31

Dill Pickle

02-11-2004, 03:38

Your military has never won a war without assistance. Whenever the US military has attempted sole action, it has consistently resulted in catastrophy, even when facing relatively primitive enemies. completly agree with that post but you forgot us bombing hiroshima and the revolutionary war. but besides that ya all other wars we had help but thats the only way to win a war without heavy loss. anyway a lot of people here espically in Georgia are very hard headed and dont realise just how bad this country has gotten in bush's 4 years. i dont know if they know it but are scared to speak up about it or if they are just that friggin ignorant to the world and people around them. i though us Americans were peace bringers not *******s looking to pick a fight(besides new york). its not a matter of right or wrong its a matter of common sense and common sense should tell you that this guy needs to go, and we are not as friendly in the world as we once were. everyone hates us and right they should becasue all they see is our leaders actions and when that leader turns into a turd sandwitch its time for him to go. vote kerry or nader even tomorrow, anyone but bush. and dont diss England they are the only allies we have left. :p and you have to have balls to back up a country you are friends with even when you know the war is wrong but you dont want to ruin a friendship, so props to england.

Sneaky

02-11-2004, 04:10

It's because enemies die of laughter when facing the French. The only thing Americans have to make their enemies laugh are their Texan accents and the constant jams on the M16A2.

Even here in Canada, we had insurgents jeering our retailer-purchased uniforms and our duct-taped old Sten guns
:cool:

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 05:01

completly agree with that post but you forgot us bombing hiroshima

The biggest war crime in the history of mankind hardly constitutes a war in my book. The japanese had been confined to their own borders by the time that atrocity happened. While the usa can claim sole responsibility for the war crime, the war itself was alongside many allies.

but besides that ya all other wars we had help but thats the only way to win a war without heavy loss.

I think its more to do with the fact that america has one of the worst trained armies around. the us army has incredible equipment and collosal numbers, but it seems their training, leadership and philosophies let them down. They make bad tactical decisions, backed up by shoot first ask questions later attitudes that make all locals turn against them due to the hidious amounts of friendly fire incidents such an outlook results in.

I remember reading on the news after iraq that more british soldiers died from 'accidents' (Friendly fire and crashes) than iraqi :eek: Our harriers actually had to shoot at american patriot missile defense systems just to survive after they started blowing friend and foe alike out of the sky.

Its common knowledge that 'shock and awe' just bombarded areas without any clear target. Its no wonder the iraqi people hate the occupiers so much.

The might of the us army is undeniable, but I think they benefit hugely from more experienced armies like the British when going to war in terms of tactics and even though our army is smaller, we take the more difficult and demanding tasks, and usually complete them without incident.

you have to have balls to back up a country you are friends with even when you know the war is wrong but you dont want to ruin a friendship, so props to england.

Actually, it was because our current leader is as moronic as bush. Most of his cabinet begged him not to do it, his chancellor reportedly got on his knees and begged him to reconsider, tons of politicians resigned, as well as our top legal people because they knew how illegal and wrong it was.

We're gonna go through the same sort of election before long and I share your frustration with peoples ignorance. So many people in the uk still support blair after all he has done..because there isnt really a strong alternative that presents itself. The harsh truth both sides of the pond is this I'm afraid:

Anything is better than what we have now.

If I was american, I'd vote for anything but bush, even if the country ended up being led by scooby doo and the mystery squad, and I hope for the future of your country, and the safety of the world as a whole, that bush gets given his richly deserved boot as soon as possible.

=Profcorron=

02-11-2004, 06:11

Actually, it was because our current leader is as moronic as bush. Most of his cabinet begged him not to do it, his chancellor reportedly got on his knees and begged him to reconsider, tons of politicians resigned, as well as our top legal people because they knew how illegal and wrong it was.

We're gonna go through the same sort of election before long and I share your frustration with peoples ignorance. So many people in the uk still support blair after all he has done..because there isnt really a strong alternative that presents itself. The harsh truth both sides of the pond is this I'm afraid:

Anything is better than what we have now.

If I was american, I'd vote for anything but bush, even if the country ended up being led by scooby doo and the mystery squad, and I hope for the future of your country, and the safety of the world as a whole, that bush gets given his richly deserved boot as soon as possible.

I hope atleast the avarage jo's in USA and England Think better then the onse that revoted in Howard.

(no insult meant)

As for stupid tactical desitions of anything since WW1 would be Galipoly. The UK send all our Aussie Troops in the Dark giving us some wrong directions. To face a cliff face full of turks.

But we Aussies made the best of the situation. We stayed for 6 months then were told we could retreat, we left with no casualties. We created the First Automatic rifle, the parascope and other cool inventions.

We lost lots in the first assult but after we were in we left the enermy lots of lead. (and if we'd attacked on a flat beach we'd have had them gone. )

........___...........____..........._____

MAybe we should send the results of this poll to the Selection commity in the US. Even if they don't listen to the US maybe they'll listen to the world.

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 06:33

I hope atleast the avarage jo's in USA and England Think better then the onse that revoted in Howard.

You dont get to hear about half of what blair does. He's really messed the country up in a lot of ways tbh :(

I'm not really that fussed on howard one way or another, but I know I want blair gone and howard is the only one with a chance to make it happen, so he gets my vote.

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 06:47

=Profcorron=

02-11-2004, 07:55

the thing used in subs.

And i don't know we're talking of the same howard.

the Aus Prime Minister is John Howard. And he sucks, He's totaly ruined our Education and Medical systems. By stiking a homebrand bandaid on both becuase he couldn't aford bandages or even a better bandaid becuase he gave us a big set of tax cuts and baby money. (bribe)

He sucks.

A Joke i found in readers Diagest.

A newly elected Prime Minister came home and said to his wife. "I'm the Prime Minister. " His wife replys "Honestly?" And he Replys "Don't Bring that up now."

=DavikKang=

02-11-2004, 07:56

In the War of independance the US got help from france, Germany and even holand. All the countries that were otehr powers at the time . And in the WW Us got back at germany. In this war the french tried to stop it and got nocked off. How long before the Dutch.

It seems that the US makes and breaks aliances every so often just to agrivate things. eg. they fought UK and now they are trying to get them on thier side. the GErmans were on the thier side and then they attacked them...

LoL Prof, you make it sound as if the United States wanted to go to war with Germany. During both wars, America was being blamed for being to much of an isolationist. It was actually do to certain attacks and British propaganda that caused the US to enter both WWs. Getting involved was the last thing that America wanted to do at that time (even though a lot of the people wanted to help out the English). Also, a lot can change in a country in a hundred years or two. Germany in WWII was nothing like the Germany of the 1800s or even WWI. Also, right after France helped America, Napoleon took power and sought to attack America eventually. Surely you can't be saying that the US makes alliances just so they can go back and attack the country.

BTW, as far as I can remember, the Germans didn't help the US as much as they attacked in the Revolutionary War. I don't remember any Germans aiding the colonies, but I do remember that the German mercenaries known as the Hessians were hired by the British.

Don't forget the Poles' help in the Revolutionary War! I would personally like to thank any Pole who reads this for consistently being a great friend of the US from before she even became a country.

Anyway, I would also like to gently remind everyone here to please be a little more polite in their debating in this thread.

Please keep in mind that each person hold a view that they have gotten from evaluating all the information that they have received and judging what is true and what is not. For example, from all the information I have received and all research I have done, I am fully convinced that Bush is a good guy. From all the information Acid has recieved and researched, he is fully convinced that Bush is evil.

I am sure that each person is fully persuaded in their own minds that they hold the morally right viewpoint so lets not go around calling those that disagree with us as evil and stupid and all that. Simply try to present your beliefs clearly and respect others who disagree with you.

Finally, don't go back to the silly argument of "my country is better than yours"!!! Bah! :rolleyes:

ArcTrooper-Jordal Dorr

02-11-2004, 08:56

Heh. Just a little picture I found on the internet :D

(Something tells me im going to be flamed/screamed at for this...)

deegs

02-11-2004, 11:25

guys its all going as predicted......

Anyone ever read about john titor!!!!!
Basically he said he came back in time for an old computer.
He said the 2004 elections would split the country in half, he said the would become 2 main groups......and a american civil war would break out by the next election in 2008.
I dont buy into this but damn was it a good/interesting read.
He predicted many things like the war in a iraq, and the 911 attack and he did all this in 1999....he predicted george bush to be the instigator but back then every1 thought he meant senior.....Read the links ye wont be disappointed and i'll make a new thread if ye want to discuss it...

Basically, dont worry bout who wins...as sky news said last night whoever wins half of america will be rightly pissed off....any way stay cool for a while cos the civil war is coming and world war 3 will follow in 2016

(just hope b17 comes out before then) ;)

http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/
www.johntitor.com/

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 15:28

the thing used in subs.

Periscope?. Was invented by simon lake (american) and howard grubb (british) ?

the Aus Prime Minister is John Howard. And he sucks, He's totaly ruined our Education and Medical systems. By stiking a homebrand bandaid on both becuase he couldn't aford bandages or even a better bandaid becuase he gave us a big set of tax cuts and baby money. (bribe)

Ah. My mistake :) Our current main opposition to blair is a man called Michael howard.

Mazoon

02-11-2004, 15:45

Chron... U forgot something in your post...

Queen of England has about the same power as people of USA: Nothing.

USA feeds drugs to their pilots, so the flights would not be so boring.
A drugged pilot sees a british convoy, thinking its enemy. Tower warns that it might be our ally. Pilot fires anyway. Boom! There goes the convoy! Greatest victory in one battle for USA in the wars of last 10 years, though against ally tank convoy. Based on facts.

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 15:54

I had a school friend who's stepfather was in a tank that got strafed by an american a10 tank killer. Destroyed him :(

nanoo

02-11-2004, 16:10

and a american civil war would break out by the next election in 2008.

You are wrong. He said it will break out in 2005 and it is next year.

"There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe. The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska."

Should I say something to topic... mm I thought I would say long story about how "evil" the bush is... but I do not this time.

And Bush probably wins. Even if they voted for Kerry :) Florida will do it again...
http://www.jeb.org/

deegs

02-11-2004, 16:23

Periscope?. Was invented by simon lake (american) and howard grubb (british) ?

WHoooooaaaaaaaa hold ur horsies dude?

God damn britts......trying to steal the irish's thunder.

The Grubb Company was created by Thomas Grubb, an Irish engineer born in Waterford in 1800, who worked in the production of printers and other machinery. He later lived in Langford Terrace, Monkstown, Dublin where he founded Grubbs of dublin which specialised in telescope making. His son Howard (later sir howard grubb) was also IRISH and was accredited with perfecting the design. He was educated at a private school and later at Trinity College, Dublin as a civil engineer,

So twas the irish holding up the uk.........again, it was invented by an american, Simon Lake, then later perfected by an irishman.

hmmm :D

El Vi-Riachi

02-11-2004, 16:37

WHoooooaaaaaaaa hold ur horsies dude?

God damn britts......trying to steal the irish's thunder.

The Grubb Company was created by Thomas Grubb, an Irish engineer born in Waterford in 1800, who worked in the production of printers and other machinery. He later lived in Langford Terrace, Monkstown, Dublin where he founded Grubbs of dublin which specialised in telescope making. His son Howard (later sir howard grubb) was also IRISH and was accredited with perfecting the design. He was educated at a private school and later at Trinity College, Dublin as a civil engineer,

So twas the irish holding up the uk.........again, it was invented by an american, Simon Lake, then later perfected by an irishman.

hmmm :D

But wasnt the Irish part of Britain at that time (1800)? i thought they only won thier independence in this century. i might be wrong.

as for the whole US army etc etc argument i think acidus thinks the same as i do, everything you said man i completly agree with, as for chron earlier saying something about the world is gonna end everything has gone to ****, can anyone remeber the time BEFORE bush? it was quite a nice world to live in wasnt it? and as for blair i hate him so much if i ended getting in i would throw more than purple dust in condoms at him, a chair maybe? perhaps chairwalker himself? :p

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 17:21

ACiDuS

02-11-2004, 17:23

can anyone remeber the time BEFORE bush? it was quite a nice world to live in wasnt it?

By comparison, yes. Its funny looking back at how much everyone hated our government back then, and the mistakes they made seem so trivial in comparison to what has occured of late.

[KP] Tokakeke

02-11-2004, 17:37

As Artem would say..

Indeed!

Chroniktoke

02-11-2004, 18:33

Incorrect. Its simply that imbeciles like yourself are so loud and outspoken, you get noticed more and give your country a bad reputation.

Your last post illustrates my point pretty conclusively. There are many level headed, intelligent americans contributing to this very thread, but if someone were to look at it, all they would remember is you acting like an idiot.

Your military has never won a war without assistance. Whenever the US military has attempted sole action, it has consistently resulted in catastrophy, even when facing relatively primitive enemies.

im the imbecile?

Nope your wrong, pal.Youve never met me in person , so you assume im an idiot, well you thought like aunt lit

Step down , buddy weve saved your british ass before...........why dont u just study Hitler's plans and realize , without the Americans , nothing would have stopped him,then again you did help lots.

Either way , im going to laugh my tail off if bush wins ,and when he does............IN YOUR FACE, BOY.

El Vi-Riachi

02-11-2004, 19:03

God he's like a broken record sometimes :rolleyes:

correction Hiter wasnt our problem he was yours as well, how do you think hitler would of turned to next after he finished with us? the only reason the we won the war cause america got thier thumbs out of thier arses and acted but this is going off topic.

bush out and a monkey in..... like i said anything is better than that guy

deegs

02-11-2004, 19:28

But wasnt the Irish part of Britain at that time (1800)? i thought they only won thier independence in this century. i might be wrong.

Yes 1916 easter rising etc......

I still think of the irish as british tbh. If they wanna be bitter and hateful its their own business.
Look i dont see any1 bitter or hateful, but if you want to enter into Semantics

Ireland was part of the brittish empire....like india, hong kong, scotland etc...
If some1 were born in these countries they are still of their national origin...scotish/welsh/irish/indian/hong kongese(whatever) etc, they were entitled to move freely within the brittish empire (passports in these days) but were not garanteed brittish cititizens!

Currently ireland is part of the brittish isles which there is no governence over and respects all the isles individual nationalism.......

Your comments are ignorant and ill founded. You STILL think the irish are brittish......you ever watch the news.......

Howard was irish wether you chose to believe it or not is ur progorative

=tom=

02-11-2004, 19:31

he only reason the we won the war cause america got thier thumbs out of thier arses and acted

imo it was bcs he wasted to many troops on Russia
if he wouldnt (try to ) invade Russia , well dunno what would have happened

deegs

02-11-2004, 19:34

You are wrong. He said it will break out in 2005 and it is next year.

I guess u didnt read it properly...

From his original postings...

a civil war that we'll see the beginnings of during 2004 and 2005, escalating until it is indisputable by 2008 (a general date by which time everyone will realize the world they thought they were living in was over) and “will consume everyone in the US by 2012” (no vague Nostradamus ramblings or Bible-baloney in this stark prediction).

Tenken

02-11-2004, 22:34

P.S > Tenken! teh words crusade and jihad are themselves defined as being holy wars!
And I would add that genesis, in the bible has even got the order of evolution wrong, there is a huge difference in time from the first appearences of birds and reptiels, bird. ( reptiles being much older.) Genesis states that the birds were one of the first creatures.

Also the bible says that man was before woman, but in reality every man starts as a woman in the womb, very early on.

How does the bible forget creatures like dinosaurs... and raptors :P, who lived for over 160 million years.Some priests say that they died in the great flood, but the bible also says noah gathered 2 of EVERY ANIMAL!

ok raptor first your taking the bible to literrally most of the old testimate are just stories ask a priest most will say that and theyre just to teach morality while some are true and keep in mind when it was written people didnt even know dinosaurs had ever existed and God himself did not write it he told people roughly what to write and he told PEOPLE tell people to do anything and we f*ck it up bad
and secondly man was before woman in the bible if you read genesis it says man was created from mud and God breathed life into him, in other words we were created not born this is just one of those "what came first the chicken or the egg"? type of question well never be able to know
and keep in mind i said MOST of the OLD TESTIMATE are strories not ALL and not NEW TESTITMATE

Tenken

02-11-2004, 22:48

we created the lightbulb, the toilet, the sandwich, the radio, the telephone, the submarine, jet, steam and combustion engine, the tin can, trains, Penicillin, periscope, toilet paper, vacuum cleaner, umbrella, viagra and australia :p
not to offend but i believe germany created the sub and the us created the phone i might be wrong about that but thats what i remember dunno about the rest of those someone created em tho and to whoever did wooo! :p

Mazoon

02-11-2004, 22:51

Tenken

02-11-2004, 22:56

But wasnt the Irish part of Britain at that time (1800)? i thought they only won thier independence in this century. i might be wrong.

as for the whole US army etc etc argument i think acidus thinks the same as i do, everything you said man i completly agree with, as for chron earlier saying something about the world is gonna end everything has gone to ****, can anyone remeber the time BEFORE bush? it was quite a nice world to live in wasnt it? and as for blair i hate him so much if i ended getting in i would throw more than purple dust in condoms at him, a chair maybe? perhaps chairwalker himself? :p
peaceful?? peaceful!? PEACEFUL MY WHITE *SS
just that no super powers were involved before bush so no one paid much attention
fact:at any given time there are aproximatly 14 wars going on in the world not always between countries mind you religous groups and factions etc are accounted for

Tenken

02-11-2004, 23:00

Nope, submarine is a British invention. Phone... Graham Bell was not the first. There was one Italiano, but he got a heart attack on his way to patent office. He already had a temporary patent for telephone, which expired. Heart attack 1 hour later and he would be famous. And ironically, in hospital he heard about Mr. Bell´s "brand new" invention.
poor guy pry rolled over in his grave =\
well i said i could be wrong cuz thats just what i was taught... dunno why i should believe it they teach us henry ford invented the car to which he didnt just the assembly line... least they teach that to us till like high school

Chroniktoke

02-11-2004, 23:16

PEACE is the only answer, but America cant take attacks from the Al Queida.

I could care less about our president , besides the fact that Kerry is up for lowering defense funds for America, and raising taxes and what-not.

You get a shot in life to be something big and it isnt hard, this is the republican beleif, hell to tell you all the truth i dont like any of the candidates and could half ass care.

Why call me an imbecile because im an American telling my thoughts?
We will find out who runs this young nation soon, either way everything seems to fall apart.

=DavikKang=

02-11-2004, 23:49

ok raptor first your taking the bible to literrally most of the old testimate are just stories ask a priest most will say that and theyre just to teach morality while some are true and keep in mind when it was written people didnt even know dinosaurs had ever existed and God himself did not write it he told people roughly what to write and he told PEOPLE tell people to do anything and we f*ck it up bad
and secondly man was before woman in the bible if you read genesis it says man was created from mud and God breathed life into him, in other words we were created not born this is just one of those "what came first the chicken or the egg"? type of question well never be able to know
and keep in mind i said MOST of the OLD TESTIMATE are strories not ALL and not NEW TESTITMATE

Hold on, I have a degree in theology and I can assure you that you would have to throw out all of the Bible if you say that the any part of the Old Testament is not historical but is rather just a story with moral dimentions. Jesus, the one who all of Christianity is centered upon, affirmed the Creation account, the Flood, the history of the kingdom of Israel, and the history of all the other kingdoms mentioned. To say that He was mistaken or lying would show that He could not be God. BTW, secular ancient history sources and archaeology affirm the historicity of nearly the entire Old Testament. Tenken, I would encourage you to study the Bible for yourself and compare it with history instead of asking a priest to tell you. I can "prove" any philosophy or interpretation of the Bible by selectively twisting Scripture, but the Bible in it's entirety has just one consistent message. Read the entire Bible from Genesis and Revalation and you will see that there can be only one interpretion.

Now Raptor brought up some good points so let's answer them:

1) Creationism says that birds came before reptiles, evolution says that reptile actually evolved into birds. This is true, but evolution has no grounds to say that birds evolved from reptiles. There is no reason to believe that reptiles are older (much older as evolution says) than birds other than the fact that reptiles "look" older. The only evidence for it so far are a few proven hoaxes. The simple fact is that neither view can be proven right now, each one is simply a certain belief that requires faith.

2) Why are dinosaurs not mentioned in the Bible? Actually, they are! Look at Job 40 for two incredible examples of a Brachiosaurus and possibly a Kronosaurus, Pliosaur, or a Plesiosaurus. They have been interpreted by some scholars to be an elephant and a crocodile, respectively. However, these interpretations are given based upon a philosophical presupposition that they are trying to force upon the text. The only interpretation that fits is that of dinosaurs living at the time of man (there is also fossil evidence as well as myths and legends from every culture to support this fact).

3) Man was supposedly created first, but why does each human start off in the womb as a female? Are you saying that unborn babies are really people and not just a mass of cyptoplasim? Well, while it is true that babies start out as female, and they develope into a male if the chromosomes are right, it must be pointed out that this has nothing to do with evolution or whether man or woman came first. According to Genesis, man was created by God fully mature, He did not need to create a woman so that a man could develope inside first.

4) Yes, Noah did gather two of every animal and seven of every "clean" animal (litterally, also it is funny that only the Bible knew which animals were reletively safe to eat and forbid early on the consuming of any animal that commonly carried disease and/or parasites, it took modern science 7000 years to come to the same conclusions). He probably took all the dinosaurs as babies to save space and food.

Anyway, this thread has gone from a poll on who you are going to vote for to a thread with flames against America, counter-flames back to the country of the person that said it, and random comments about religion that don't belong here. Now that the day to vote is finally here, maybe this thread should be closed soon. :rolleyes:

ACiDuS

03-11-2004, 11:38

Either way , im going to laugh my tail off if bush wins ,and when he does............IN YOUR FACE, BOY.

It'll hurt your country far more than mine. To be honest you can rot. I really dont care one way or another about the cliched american imbecile who goes on about ww2 whenever his fragile national pride is questioned.

Its the sensible people that vote for kerry (ie, the civilised parts of america, rather than the backwater states) I'll feel sorry for when bush plunges the world into another pointless war(s), because they at least tried to stop him.

Howard was irish wether you chose to believe it or not is ur progorative

Ireland is both ireland and britain in my eyes. All the segregation these people try to enforce just seems like irrational nationalism to me (bordering on racism and xenophobia), and I really can't be bothered adhering to labels demanded by murdering terrorists and conceded by the weakest and most hypocritical government in recent times. :confused:

not to offend but i believe germany created the sub and the us created the phone i might be wrong about that but thats what i remember dunno about the rest of those someone created em tho and to whoever did wooo!

Brits :)

=Profcorron=

03-11-2004, 12:00

all our pariscope was was 2 mirors placed in a gun so we could see over the trenches and not get shot. Rather nifty isn't it.

ACiDuS

03-11-2004, 12:20

The periscope was not invented by australia. However, the concept of putting it on a rifle was :) and ya, its a very cool idea, tbh dont see why our trenches didnt do it.

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 12:32

Well, Looks As If The New Tyrant Of The World Is Bush Again :)

You Like That Guys?...........................................

Yeah Yall Love It :)

Time to close the thread now

deegs

03-11-2004, 14:27

Ireland is both ireland and britain in my eyes. All the segregation these people try to enforce just seems like irrational nationalism to me (bordering on racism and xenophobia), and I really can't be bothered adhering to labels demanded by murdering terrorists and conceded by the weakest and most hypocritical government in recent times. :confused:

Now i'm confused, is there any chance u are talking about northern ireland....as i'm from the south...you know the republic...we aint fighting for anything! Howard was also from the south of ireland incidently
================================================== =======
With regard to the phone no one really knows who invented it! On February 14, 1876, Bell's telephone patent application was filed at the United States Patent Office; Elisha Gray's attorney filed a caveat for a telephone just a few hours later.

In the pending lawsuit it was deemed bell owned the patent on it, it was not identified who invented it......bell was scottish, gray was from chicargo.....i'd call that a draw!

in terms of the submarine the first ever successful documentation (tho' hardly practical) as during the American Civil War, the Confederates built the H.L. Hunley, a submarine that sank a Union ship, the U.S.S. Housatonic, in 1864.

Granted David Bushnell's Turtle submarine was designed built and dove in 1776 but was deemed unsuccessful so this was not counted neither was all the theoritical drawings dating back from the 1500's

So again not brittish.....

So its questionable to who invented the telephone...definatily not as simple to say the brits did.
It was almost certainly the yanks that invented the sub.
And the irish that invented the periscope.....

Maybe the brits have a weird way of looking at these things in school....i dunno but ur wrong acid ;)

=tom=

03-11-2004, 15:32

1 thing is sure
the Irish invented the Leprichaun :p

Alesh

03-11-2004, 15:46

Meh... phone... periscope... the best things to come from those islands are Black Adder, The Young Ones and Monty Phyton (The Quest for the Holy Grail as the best example :P).

ZiEk.

03-11-2004, 16:01

1st turd
2nd kerry
3rd bush

everything suxxx

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 18:29

1st turd
2nd kerry
3rd bush

everything suxxx

the one that came in third on this poll, is first for my country, how do you all like that?

yeah you all LOVE it.

ACiDuS

03-11-2004, 18:32

Why do you celebrate your own stupidity?

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 18:34

Stupidity?

Thats your stupid opinion, ****head.Which is stupid to my eyes , but not yours.

Why dont you step down and learn some respect towards others opinions and realize that it is rational to them, not to you.

You can take your democratic or whatever thoughts, and shove them.
You and your monarchy.....pfft

Dill Pickle

03-11-2004, 18:39

Well, Looks As If The New Tyrant Of The World Is Bush Again :)

You Like That Guys?...........................................

Yeah Yall Love It :)

ya you will love it too when he declares war on something else and we all get drafted. its been proven now, the majority of Americans are friggin idiots. im moving to canada before we get blown the fudge up. and for teh pot

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 18:43

Oh god Oh god once again here we go.

1 of 24 reasons why we went to iraq ok girls, which was weapons of mass destruction and it was at the bottom of the list

I dont mind the draft im not a pussy, and im not scared to die for my nation, which of course another BRITISH OR DEMOCRAT WILL CALL ME AN IMBECILE OR STUPID FOR THAT THOUGHT.Thats ok though i really dont care what FOOLS think.

and dill if i could go to Canada i sure would you have a beautiful idea going, and not just the pot.Screw this , im going to move next door to AciDus in England :)

maye then ill get my revenge face to face :)

Alesh

03-11-2004, 18:48

I'd never die for a damn banner invented by some megalomaniac some centuries ago... die for ideals, not politicians.

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 19:05

i die for my country, which i belive has progressed better than britian, italy, france, australia, africa, germany, bulgaria, russia, whatever you can throw at me, has not made the progression as these states have.

This nation is built on an ideal im willing to die for, which is freedom......

Britian has never been as idealistic and as fair as this place , hell.

Ill die for this country and you can suck my **** if you think im stupid for it, for i wouldnt die for a politician, a banner, but my belief which is equality in all men.

Whom are any of you to judge?

Either way as AciDuS would say , im going to celebrate my "Stupidity"

Whom is some high taxed monarchy living slug to judge me?!?!?!?!

deegs

03-11-2004, 19:11

well said alesh, if bush really respected america then you would not have to die for it chron!

I think peeps seem to be picking on u personally, solely for the feck of it not about ur ideas or how u express them.

But you'll never be in a situation where u will knowingly die for ur nation, hopefully. But that in itself seems an admirable ideal, however i think there is a difference that i hope u will never die for bushes ideals i.e. his greed, or misguided ethics.

George W Bushes Resume (http://www.crikey.com.au/whistleblower/2003/12/03-0004.html)

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 19:24

your resume is mostly false leadings, pal.

Both candidates spoke of a draft, which would only happen if we had to over a big war, and who has the balls to group up to stand up for the war on iraq?
Who has the balls to step up and defeat america?Doesnt matter ............

Either way, ive gotten my republican way and you are all red over it.

deegs

03-11-2004, 19:29

your resume is mostly false leadings, pal.

Are u sure?
I thought he sent it to clinton when he applied for the president job last time round! ;)

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 19:31

no idiot would send a resume consisting of only negative properties.

i take it this is a joke, a sarcastic laugh at my beleifs

=DavikKang=

03-11-2004, 19:42

*Sigh* I thought that just maybe, political ideas could be discussed intellegently in this thread. I guess I overestimated the maturity of the MB community. Now it is just people trading insults.

(Someone please close thread)

Chroniktoke

03-11-2004, 19:48

i wasnt insulting deegs ar anyone, just lashing back at a certain british person for labeling me as an idiot , a dolt.

Im not stupid , and i refuse to let somebody call me that because i have a republican beleif the same as the majority of our counrty.

yes BUSH won, please close the thread.

CT-272

03-11-2004, 20:01

Just in case not everyone found out the information, here is the BBC News article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3979367.stm) displaying the results.

At present
Bush: 274
Kerry: 252
New Mexico and Iowa not included in totals.

Personally, I didn't mind either taking up four years of presidency.
A lot of friends and family have split opinion on which of the two candidates they wished to win.

[Edit]
Funny how the Turd Sandwich got more votes with Bush being least. :eek:

ACiDuS

03-11-2004, 20:10

Didnt bush go awol to avoid the previous iraq war :eek:

This nation is built on an ideal im willing to die for, which is freedom......

The patriot act, pre-emptive strikes, selfish foreign policy, oil warring, concentration camps and other atrocities have spat upon that vision. Bush is responsible.

Under bush usa policy has gone from freedom and equality for all to freedom for rich americans, and screw anyone else to the wall at every opportunity.

If you do not see this, or do not care about this, you are either stupid as I have been saying, or as vile as bush himself in your attitudes toward the world. Me assuming you are simply ignorant is actually me giving you the benefit of the doubt, because any educated or logical person can see these things stirring them in the face. As you are clearly southern american, as is bush, perhaps its simply a case of news and other media representing his actions in a brighter light due to their home bias?

Bush quotes:

"There should be limits to free speech" (speaking of an internet site that abused him)

"They misunderestimated me"

"Rarely is the question asked, Is our children learning"

"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein."

"I love to bring people into the oval office...and say, this is where I office."

"[T]he illiteracy level of our children are appalling."

"[A]s you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say."

"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."

"Do you have blacks, too?"—To Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso

"I will make America what we want it to be—a literate country and a hopefuller country"

"The only things that I can tell you is that every case I have reviewed I have been comfortable with the innocence or guilt of the person that I've looked at. I do not believe we've put a guilty... I mean innocent person to death in the state of Texas."

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."

"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?"

You get the point. We're in for another 4 years of tyranny from a guy who would probably be outfoxed by a childproof medicine bottle.

just lashing back at a certain british person for labeling me as an idiot , a dolt.

You're the one who has brought nationalities into it tbh. I've never insulted you for your country of home, although you have insulted my home many times. You need to realise that hating bush does not equate to hating america. I've stated many times that I feel sorry for most americans with him as a leader.

Fact is tbh, you have proven on many occasions that you are thick as mud, I apologise if I'm the first person to point this out in your life.